Question for tank experts

[Erwin]

Interesting that it does show emergency bale-out from underwater tank procedure.  Also, German Leopard with snorkel large enuff for a man to stand at the top and guide the driver.

[Phantom Captain]

12 hours ago, dbsapp said:

It's in Russian, but has plenty of video material.

 

 

Very cool thanks!  I think I would feel a lot better in a BMP that swims instead of driving across the bottom of a river bed in a 48 ton tank.

Just seems to me that the last place a tank should ever be is under water, haha!

Tanks always have that catch-22 of feeling safer on the battlefield but at the same time being complete magnets for enemy fire and then when they do get hit it's usually pretty violent and spectacular.  I am not sure if I would feel safer in one or outside of one, boots on the ground.

 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Phantom Captain

[ZPB II]

1 hour ago, Phantom Captain said:

I think I would feel a lot better in a BMP that swims instead of driving across the bottom of a river bed in a 48 ton tank.

Just seems to me that the last place a tank should ever be is under water, haha!

 

Not an expert, but it's only relatively safe if you're riding on top of the vehicle. In a fording vehicle, the geometry of the situation is a bit more stable, usually if something goes wrong the vehicle dynamics don't change as rapidly. There's still the issue of water but atleast the vehicle isn't sideways or upside down, making exiting easier.

Whereas, if something goes wrong in a swimming vehicle it can look something like the linked picture. Everything happened in the span of a few seconds, people riding on the deck reported that one moment the vehicle was swimming on the surface, and in 2-3 seconds it was gone. A common sentiment was "the BTR literally vanished from underneath us." None of the crew and passengers inside made it out alive. A bit like how it was extremely hard to bail out of a spinning bomber, you're just tumbling around inside the machine, disoriented and hitting against sharp angular surfaces.

https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1440/2972d134ecf8326d832bc3dd12693072.jpg.webp

(the human for scale looks a bit wonky when it's placed right next to a zoomed in view of the vehicle)

[Phantom Captain]

15 minutes ago, ZPBII said:

https://is.mediadelivery.fi/img/1440/2972d134ecf8326d832bc3dd12693072.jpg.webp

(the human for scale looks a bit wonky when it's placed right next to a zoomed in view of the vehicle)

Yeah, that's absolutely terrifying.

[Erwin]

A similar tragedy when an M1 drove off a bridge and crew died in the river:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/apr/01/iraq7

[MikeyD]

While researching for the game it was discovered that M113A3 is forbidden to swim rivers except in wartime. The A3 version was heavier than the (in-game) A2 so there was less margin for error. Prep for swimming, I recall, included balancing-out the fuel tanks and properly distributing the stowage. You wouldn't want a vehicle significantly heavier on the right side than on the left.

[SimpleSimon]

I think ultimately it was an operational mobility thing-not a tactical one. The Russians just got tired of all the times the Germans used rivers to construct defensive barriers and frustrate an advance. I would think it'd be reasonable enough to have it in game nonetheless, but it can be abstracted with deploy zone/map design construction well enough too. 

[Centurian52]

On 9/2/2021 at 4:52 PM, chuckdyke said:

Prep time is according to the Website 20 minutes for fording to the same depth as infantry. We can play this better in the set-up zone.

Deep, deeper and deepest water fording with main battle tanks. (narkive.com)

 

20 minutes is short enough to fit into a CM scenario, so I don't think it's entirely outside the scope of Combat Mission. Of course I have no idea how BFC would implement deploying a snorkel, or a vehicle being able to ford a 5 meter deep river while still disallowing it from fording a deeper body of water. And it's possible that very few players would be willing to have their tanks out of commission for so long, and most would rarely or never use the feature anyway. So it might not be worth implementing. Still, I'd add it to the list of features that would be nice to have. I'd just add it towards the bottom of that list (it is definitely meant more for operational mobility than tactical mobility anyway).

[chuckdyke]

20 minutes on hide within say 100 meters before the tank can ford where the infantry can ford a river.

[IICptMillerII]

18 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

I think ultimately it was an operational mobility thing-not a tactical one. The Russians just got tired of all the times the Germans used rivers to construct defensive barriers and frustrate an advance. I would think it'd be reasonable enough to have it in game nonetheless, but it can be abstracted with deploy zone/map design construction well enough too. 

It was. Snorkeling a tank was never meant to be done anywhere near a battlefield, so it is well outside the scope of CM.