CMBN - 4.03 (MG US Airborn): 60mm organic mortar --- what is going on? (warrior)

[markshot]

The platoon HQ has issued a line target order to his organic mortar (the mortar does not have LOS, but HQ does and there is voice comms).  This was 10 minutes ago.  It went through RECEIVING right away.  And then I saw just a single spotting round about 20M a little short and left.  No one is suppressed or taking fire.  Neither of the two units involved have any killed or wounded.  I would have expected to have seen my fire mission walk the German trench by now.  But nothing?  The status simply says SPOTTING.

Oh, yee, CM Drill Instructors - help please!

Thank you.

PS1:  The trench contains probably 2 HMG-42 teams, and eliminating them would permit movement forward to the next area of cover.

PS2:  At what point, does one zip their saves and make a bug report?  (I've never done this in 20 years.)

[chuckdyke]

Does he have LOS where the spotting rounds fall? I got caught like that too some time ago. Example I saw the spotting rounds hitting in the woods unfortunately the FO didn't. Spotting rounds keep expending till the spotting rounds fall inside LOS of the FO. My experience on that one I changed my tactics in that regard. 

[markshot]

There was this single spotting round like 8 minutes ago.  I have seen the situation you describe where spotting rounds are sent down range to the point that there is nothing left for the shoot.

Yes, I have been thinking about trying to reposition the HQ, but it's like this case of "sunk cost" in terms of mission time.

[markshot]

I just checked and the HQ has fairly decent LOS.  This looks really very straight forward.

[chuckdyke]

13 minutes ago, markshot said:

Yes, I have been thinking about trying to reposition the HQ

There is another way, check the area you want to plot and allow for your ranging shots. In other words, you consider that the ranging shots may vary. Plot a linear line of fire not necessary at your target once you achieve it adjust your fire. I have 3 types of targets: Reference which is for the FO, Priority and Opportunity. Opportunity are typically 60 mm and 81 mm mortars which complement the HMGs. Once they are in the vicinity of their objective Light on Long where I suspect and adjust when full contacts pop up. Just my tactics which I found work. PS you saw only one spotting round? It is possible the others went off. Check the expenditure of rounds fired. 

Edited June 7, 2021 by chuckdyke

[markshot]

Alright, I am moving my HQ and 60mm units 20M forward.  I think the HQ will still have enough cover.

[Erwin]

As Chuck says, for best results, your spotter needs to have good LOS over a wide area that includes the target zone as well as many dozens/hundreds of meters around the desired target.  It's usual that spotting rounds will fall some way away from the target, and the spotter has to see those spotting rounds in order to guide the arty towards the target zone.

[markshot]

But if he didn't see the round, then should he not call for another?  That is what is so weird.  10 minutes went by with not another round.  They still had 28.

[chuckdyke]

Possibly sometimes you need to adjust it manually and don't rely on the TacAI. 

[markshot]

3 spotting rounds and fire for effect --- lost about 11-12 minutes.

Having been a Software Engineer, I am going to say I hit some form of bounds condition (bug) in the code.

This is where you are on the border line of conditional or loop decision such that in testing it was all LEFT or all RIGHT, but this time it was down the MIDDLE, and that case never actually came up or got tested.  Fog of Programming! 

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, markshot said:

Having been a Software Engineer,

Wow, who am I to make suggestions? We forget at times we are dealing with computers and codes which try to mimic real life.  

[markshot]

Still not firing.  After 3 minutes.  I am going to create a ticket.  Rats.  This is going to cost one long mission as the 2 HMG teams in nice trench are going to tear my squads to shreds.

[markshot]

I just created a ticket, and will skip this mission.  I hope I won't see this again.  But I have other games to play.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[markshot]

BTW, I have it zipped up.  Beta or player is welcome to movies and turns if you care to take a look.  Just let me know.

Ticket #32584203

[SimpleSimon]

Incidental to an issue with call-for-fire issues but the Airborne mortar crews are only issued 20 rounds per team. Seems much like they're intended for direct fire. 

[markshot]

Mine had 28 or 29.  I cannot remember.

[SimpleSimon]

Army crews have 32 even, but rarely are they much good for indirect fire I felt. Too much complication for too little kaboom. My own preference-but I usually just order them to direct fire at targets they have visibility on. 

There were reports of the 60mm round it used landing right next to Germans and not killing them. 60mm produces very little fragmentation (less than a hand grenade in theory) and a lot of Armies ditched light mortars during the war. Sort of off topic in this case I know but the key to me is just that I don't rely much on them. I prefer to expend their ammunition at first opportunity and use the crews as line infantry. 

[markshot]

Well, that is an interest point of view.

I had considered that, but the first team's target (which I did fire indirect) was a AAA emplacement.  If they had been spotted, and gotten a return burst.  For sure, they would all be dead.

[chuckdyke]

You can plot indirectly an LOF with the 60mm even if you have no LOS. Without calling for indirect fire. 

 

POV

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by chuckdyke

[markshot]

I was talking about this in exactly another thread --- ask a simple specific question and learn so much more.

I reloaded the bugged game (mortar indirect fire) and tried your suggestions just to learn.

Simon,

Thank you.  Yes, the 60mm team was very quick to lay down fire where I wanted it direct, and with TARGET LIGHT really controlled ammo very well while taking apart a trench defense.  The other thing I learned is that it seems that the 60mm team was a lot less noticeable firing from 200M in cover than rifle team/squads.  Especially, when the first round hits, the enemy goes to ground.

Chuck,

Thank you.  I didn't think that I just need LOS to the target and not LOF to the target.  This is actually very useful for dealing with trench works, since CM trench works don't simply seem to be dug at ground level, but always have obstructing sand bags.  Thus, for bullet fire it is hard to target a whole complex from one position.  But your insight also help to make quick work of a trench works complex.

---

Further, even if I had not experienced the bug I reported (gave John a ticket and saves), what you two propose is easily 5X faster and maybe 2X ammo efficient than what I planned.

THANKS!!!

 

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, markshot said:

LOS to the target and not LOF to the target. 

You can do something similar with HMG's, but you need to eyeball it. Working to refine it the tiles in CM are the spoiler. But HMGs and Mortars are like brothers and sisters.  

[Freyberg]

I never play like that - I always use on-map mortars in direct fire

[LongLeftFlank]

On 6/14/2021 at 11:21 PM, chuckdyke said:

You can do something similar with HMG's, but you need to eyeball it. Working to refine it the tiles in CM are the spoiler. But HMGs and Mortars are like brothers and sisters.  

Agreed, light mortars are pretty much the only organic weapon Commonwealth rifle companies have to neutralize German MG nests. Trying to flank and storm them merely gets a lot of pixeltommies killed. GIs can at least hope to suppress using their M1s and BARs.  That all reflects the documented history.

I have noticed while watching (CMBN) playtests on the AI controlled side, on-map mortars firing indirect have a lot quicker response time than do off-map ones. Which seems sensible.

[SimpleSimon]

On 6/25/2021 at 8:35 AM, Freyberg said:

I never play like that - I always use on-map mortars in direct fire

It sounds like this was the intent of the directly attached mortars that were given to the infantry in British Divisions. This is why the Bren Carrier was so common and so valuable. That it was barely bulletproof or splinter proof was just the bonus-it's main job was to huff the Vickers and MkII mortar around with their crews and ammo. 

[Warts 'n' all]

I don't think that any Bren Carrier huffed a "Vickers". The clue is in the name. Although somewhat confusingly Vickers Gun Carriers did sometimes carry Dairy Ice Cream, allegedly.   ...   

Edited July 2, 2021 by Warts 'n' all