TOW does not shoot if further waypoints are still available?

[Ultradave]

A shoot and scoot command ( parameters to be figured out) was something many of the play testers noted was something that would be a really useful addition. The need for it is more evident in CW than in other titles. You can manually manage it but it’s fiddley. Have a dedicated command would be nice. Complicated to creat I would guess because of all the different checks of ATGMs. Keep in mind the hull down command is tricky to use when doing it yourself, so the AI controlling something like that could be a challenge. 
 

Dave

[The_Capt]

39 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

Yes, that is true. I have to live with what we have. As I said, I will change the perspective of who you will play to deal with this issue. I know I am doing something the game isn´t suppose to have, AI controlled allied forces.
I think this is a great way to add immersion, to show that the battle in which you fight is not a single isolated event, but part of a bigger picture. And that the player is not the commander in charge to make every decision, but only one cog in the gear of the war.

However this shoot and scoot maneuver is something that should be possible even for normal players. I used this tactics regulary with vehicles, to move forward, give a target arc or a fire order and a few seconds pause for the vehicle to fire, and then reverse within the same turn.

So if I am reading this correctly, the TOWs will not fire when paused is the issue.  I just ran a test which confirms this and will follow-up.  This may be a bug or could be an oddity with the TOW systems in CMCW.  In-game these are TOW and ITOW so there could be an issue with flight times and guidance, which can be very long but let me see.

[chuckdyke]

@CHEqTRO for shorter ranges I would look at the Carl Gustav M3 MAAWS in US service. I may have a look at the Cold War game. 

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

14 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

In-game these are TOW and ITOW so there could be an issue with flight times and guidance

No, it is not TOW issue but an AI behaviour with ATGM in general. I checked for:
M901 TOW, M150 TOW, M151A2 TOW, BRDM-2 AT-5, BRDM-2 AT-3 and 9P149 Shturm-S

They all show the same behaviour. I think the restriction for ATGMs not be able to fire while moving is bound to the question if still waypoints are available for the vehicle, not if the vehicle is actually moving. My suggestion would be a check if the driver is driving instead, but I don´t know about the details of the engine, if such a thing could be changed easily.

The vehicle will fire, even if there is a pause, if no further waypoint is in cue. The crew can spot, but even aming is not happening anymore.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[The_Capt]

1 minute ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

No, it is not TOW issue but an AI behaviour with ATGM in general. I checked for:
M901 TOW, M150 TOW, M151A2 TOW, BRDM-2 AT-5, BRDM-2 AT-3 and 9P149 Shturm-S

They all show the same behaviour. I think the restricting for ATGMs not be able to fire while moving is bound to the question if still waypoints are available for the vehicle, not if the vehicle is actually moving. My suggestion would be a check if the driver is driving instead, but I don´t know about the details of the engine, if such a thing could be changed easily.

Well we  will see, I went back and asked.  All of these systems are guided by the human eyeball, so that could be the issue or it might just be a glitch.  I got your "moving point".  In the test I ran the M901 sat on top of a berm for about a minute, spotting quite well but not firing.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

Just now, The_Capt said:

spotting quite well but not firing.

Yes, and no aiming.

[Chibot Mk IX]

20 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

the TOWs will not fire when paused is the issue.  I just ran a test which confirms this and will follow-up.  This may be a bug or could be an oddity with the TOW systems in CMCW.   

FYI, this is a problem since CMSF 1 that impacts all ATGM launchers on AFV 

[CHEqTRO]

10 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

Well we  will see, I went back and asked.  All of these systems are guided by the human eyeball, so that could be the issue or it might just be a glitch.  I got your "moving point".  In the test I ran the M901 sat on top of a berm for about a minute, spotting quite well but not firing.

I of course cannot be 100% sure, but it is most likely, as Fusselpi pointed out, an error arising out of the way the game is coded. An ATGM cannot fire while on the move (if you check the vehicle parts tab you will see the ATGM parts greyed out while on the move); and the game recognises that a vehicle is moving if it has a waypoint plotted, not if its actually moving; hence why despite the vehicle being actually stationary thanks to the use of a pause command, because it still has an unfinished waypoint; the game thinks that that vehicle is still in the move, and is not capable of firing the ATGM.

Also, as Chibot says, you can see this problem in CMSF2 and BS with more modern vehicles and systems.

Thats why I initially said that it will be nice if a solution came in a form of engine upgrade, as this is not really  bug, that can be easily solved via a patch, as it needs somewhat of a code rewritting.

Edited May 3, 2021 by CHEqTRO

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

@CHEqTRO yes. That is exactly what I think is the case. But we as users don´t know how easy the behaviour is changable. Maybe it is not so difficult.
What exist is a string that checks if the driver is driving or not. We can see that information in the lower left corner, if a selected vehicle is driving.
If it is possible to check for the variable "Driver is driving" instead of "vehicle has waypoints in queue". If this is an realatively easy fix, this would be a great addition. If not, it is not game-breaking. It just prevents the user from doing shoot and scoot manouvers within one turn. They are still possible with a work around, if you time it in a way, that the shooting part is at the end of the turn, and then you give the order to retreat in the next turn. Just for my special purpose here, this is not an option.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

I gave it another thought, and my have discovered the reason, why ability for fire ATGMs are linked to the question if Vehicles still have a waypoint or not and not to the variable, if the driver is driving or not. It might be because of the transport of Infantery.
If you transport Infantery and you want to unload it at the last waypoint of a queue of waypoints you have created for vehicles, you would create one waypoint for the infantery as well. They would wait until the last waypoint, and THEN exit the vehicle at the last waypoint, not at a halt given by a pause order.

This variable, to let the infantery boot out of the vehicle on the last waypoint then was also used as a check for ATGM vehicles, because it was already developed early for the infantery. So a simple solution as a check if a vehicle is moving or not, because infantery also can only leave a vehicle, if the vehicle is stopped.
So the game most likely checks here for the same variable.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

I just tested my hypothesis. If Infantery would behave the same way as ATGMs, when it comes to leaving vehicles, then Infantery would leave the vehicle immediately at the last waypoint, regardless of a pause order or not, while they would stay inside the vehicle, if there are still open waypoints for the vehicle. And this is indeed the case.
@The_Capt If the Battlefront team is interested to look up for the reason, here seems to be the solution.

Again my suggestion is, to check for the variable "Driver=Driving" instead for ATGMs, to make shoot and scoot manouvers possible.
Although I don´t know how easy it would be to change this script.

[The_Capt]

12 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

I just tested my hypothesis. If Infantery would behave the same way as ATGMs, when it comes to leaving vehicles, then Infantery would leave the vehicle immediately at the last waypoint, regardless of a pause order or not, while they would stay inside the vehicle, if there are still open waypoints for the vehicle. And this is indeed the case.
@The_Capt If the Battlefront team is interested to look up for the reason, here seems to be the solution.

Again my suggestion is, to check for the variable "Driver=Driving" instead for ATGMs, to make shoot and scoot manouvers possible.
Although I don´t know how easy it would be to change this script.

So we have pushed this to Charles to see if there is anything that can be done.  I would not expect it to be solved in the first patch though as I suspect this is a deep AI coding mechanic with all sorts of implications (particularly if we see it in other titles).

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

@The_Capt yes, I understand. I would also understand if Battlefront never changes this behaviour and just leaves it as it is, although it is annoying and a limitation to the player, it is surely not game breaking.  But for example an motor rifle Battalion attacking a NATO defense line in doctrine with BMP and T-80 or T64B would never use their ATGM in the attack, if the player plots out the fire halts with pauses. But their ability to shoot ATGMs is crucial for their ability to overcome an armored NATO defense line. The only way for the player to overcome this AI behaviour is to plot out he waypoints in a way, that the Formation would come to a halt and fire their ATGMs before the end of the turn, then give new waypoints in the next turn, or to play in real time instead, which would be highly stressful, because you have to micromanage at least an entire Battalion, AND you can't plot preplaned fire halts with pauses as well.
So I assume Battlefront would be interested to change it at some point and the only question is, how easy this change can be made and if it is worth the efford. Thank you very much for helping out.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[The_Capt]

37 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

But for example an motor rifle Battalion attacking a NATO defense line in doctrine with BMP and T-80 or T64B would never use their ATGM in the attack, if the player plots out the fire halts with pauses.

The "Hunt" command is critical here and it does work for ATGMs.  If you send them on Hunt waypoints they will stop and fire (the have to be re-plotted for movement afterward) but is basically a "move until you shoot" waypoint.  It reduces the micro management load and works very well as the player does not need to plot out "halt-shoots" manually.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

Oh yes! You are right, that is true and probably the most elegant solution.

Edited May 6, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli