TOW does not shoot if further waypoints are still available?

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

Hi there,

I try to make a scenario in which you play as one company within a Battalion sized battle. The Idea is, that you will not load the game the usual way, but you will load a savegame, in which the waypoints of all other units within the Battalion are already plotted, so you don´t play them.

I noticed a strange behaviour with an M901 TOW vehicle. I have two of them in a hull down defense position behind a hedgerow, while a soviet tank battalion is advancing.
Without waypoints, they shoot their two TOW missiles, then pop smoke and reverse. I want to avoid that behaviour, so I plotted advanced waypoints for them. First I let them "reverse" to a hidden position behind the slope until the soviet tanks come into sight, then I "quick" forward into the hull down position. If I only do it like that, the M901 then will shot its two TOW missiles, pop smoke and reverse.

IF I give this hull down position some "Pause" time (I tried for 15,20,30,45,60 Seconds), with an reverse waypoint afterwards, the M901 will not fire or even try to aim. It will spot enemy tanks, but not engage them. I gave it a "Target Armor Arch", but this doesn´t change its behaviour. When the "Pause" is over, the M901 will "reverse" into it's hidden position, and then "Quick" forward again into the hull down position. Only if no following Waypoint is lined up, it will shoot. Even if the "Pause" timer is still running.

I also tried to "Stack" waypoints together to add "Pause" times. But I noticed, the pause is ignored then.
Example: "Quick" waypoint into the Hull down position with Armor Arc and 30 Seconds "Pause", then sliding another "Quick" waypoint onto the same spot with a 5 Seconds "pause" to add them up to a 35 Seconds Pause does not work. If the vehicle is at the spot of the waypoint already, the waypoint will be "Checked" regardless of the "Pause". It takes about 4 Seconds to reach the next waypoint. so the 30 Seconds Waypoint will count down to about 26 Seconds, and then jump to the next one, counting down the 5 seconds regulary.

I guess the reason for the M901 TOW not fireing from a paused waypoint might be a programmed workaround for the AI to not shoot the TOW while the vehicle is moving, but it prevents elaborate waypoint plotting, in which vehicles would shoot, then reverse to a save position, and continue this in a circle.

The M901 TOW does not pop smoke and reverse from the position, even if it comes under fire. I assume, the AI recognizes it is quite safe in its position, and still does have two TOW missiles to shoot, so it stays in combat, while it reverses as soon as it is empty, because in this case, it only is an unneccary target.

I will check if all ATGM vehicles, including Soviet ones behave in the same way. If yes, it is unfortunately not possible to continue with my idea as planned.

Another challenge is, that it is not possible, to move vehicles after infantery has disembarked. Because Infantery will disembark at the last waypoint. This is fine for a Battletaxi vehicle like the M113, which will move into a save position behind the enemy lines, unload the infantry which will get into combat position, while the M113 just waits in the save position.
Another option might be (not tested yet) to use more "Hunt" orders for the M113. So the vehicle will just drive until it spots an enemy, then it will stop and delete all following waypoint, and the infantry will boot out and follow their preplotted waypoints, while the M113 will support them from its position. But thats another story...
first... how do I get the ATGMs to fire at tanks on a paused waypoint if there are still further waypoints available?
 

[Ultradave]

30 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

Another option might be (not tested yet) to use more "Hunt" orders for the M113. So the vehicle will just drive until it spots an enemy, then it will stop and delete all following waypoint, and the infantry will boot out and follow their preplotted waypoints, while the M113 will support them from its position. But thats another story...

This isn't a very good way to employ M113s. Ideally, you want them to drive to a covered position, just out of site of the enemy, have the infantry disembark and deploy to where they need to be. M113s and early BMPs and BTRs are all very fragile. If you wait until the M113 spots the enemy, that spotting is very likely to be the last thing they do. I don't see this game behavior as an problem.

For the ATGMs, not sure. Have to look into that.

Dave

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

No, I mean in general it is fine. Just I try to plot the entire battle in the setup phase already, and thinking about options to keep it dynamic and reasonable.
The not firing ATGMs however are an issue for every user, who wants to micromanage an elaborate attack in the turn based mode. Because if you can only plot waypoints up to the point when the vehicle is suppose to open fire is a bit limited.

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

The not firing ATGMs however are an issue for every user,

You can put the unit with TOW on 'Hunt' upon encountering enemy armor there is a good chance he will use the TOW Missile. You can also highlight waypoints and use a pause command in a good firing position. From highlighted way points apart from a pause command you can also use firing orders. A great way to conduct recon by fire. 

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

That doesn´t help me in this case, if I want to preplot the battle.

[Combatintman]

Bottom line is that you are trying to do something that the engine isn't designed to do.  It is designed on the premise that the player on a given side is going to issue commands to all units at regular intervals so it is hardly surprising that you are not getting the results you expect.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

That is true. Still, it is rather an odd behaviour, that fireing an ATGM is bound to the question if a waypoint is existing and not to the movement speed or the "Driving" task of the driver. If a change of the engine is possible to change the condition to "exist waypoint" to "Is driver driving" that would be way more reasonable.

I just made a test, using the M901 TOW, M150 TOW, M151A2 TOW, BRDM-2 AT-5, BRDM-2 AT-3 and 9P149 Shturm-S on the red side, with 6 Abrams as targets on the blue side, having very small target arcs. If you Plot a few waypoints for the ATGM vehicles, with pauses in between for them to use as stops to fire, even up to 90 seconds, they will do nothing. If you then add a "hunt" command somewhere in between the waypoints, the ATGM vehicle will wait for the "Pause" time to run out, and then fire the ATGM as soon as the Hunt command deletes the waypoints.

In this case, "Pause" stops to give vehicles an opportunity to fire doesn´t work for ATMGs, the "Pause" comment here really means "Do nothing"

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[Chibot Mk IX]

to answer your question:

That's right, I think this is how the game works since CMSF1.  You can use orders combination to move AFV forward , use their main gun, then reverse back.  But you cannot use the same way to let AFV to fire their ATGM. 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Chibot Mk IX

[chuckdyke]

The TOW was not designed to fire on the move. The operator needs to have the enemy AFV in his sights till the missile hits its target. For a target 2km away that is almost 7 seconds. In full view of every tank and ground troops. The TOW (I never operated one) I would use it as an ambush weapon from concealment. 

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

That means I have to change the perspective of the battle for single player to the mechanized infantery company of the attacking Soviets.
The scenario AI can probably work together reasonable well with the Tactical-AI of the Unit. If I have enemy M901 TOW in defensive position, they will shoot their two TOWs, pop smoke and reverse. I can then write the AI-Plan in a way, in which they will be ordered, to move to the same positing every few minutes over and over again, which will lead to the wanted behaviour of the vehicle to fire and retreat for reloading, and then get into the firing position again.

I can also give some rather clumsy instruction to the NATO player, to take a look at the M901 at every turn and tell him to move them back into the firing position, if the Tactical-AI drove them back.

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

3 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

The TOW was not designed to fire on the move.

I know, most ATGMs are not designed to work on the move. I don´t want to use the weapon on the move, but while coming to a halt on a "pause". If a vehicle stops for 90 seconds because of a pause, this would be probably enough time to fire both TOWs into the target and even reload them.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

I can also give some rather clumsy instruction to the NATO player, to take a look at the M901 at every turn and tell him to move them back into the firing position, if the Tactical-AI drove them back.

Look how the TacAI handels the German Wiesel in SF2, I was happy the way the game handled the weapon. I had them in position he fired and the TacAI reversed it in a concealed position. The MIlan is a similar weapon as the TOW but in SF2 the more modern version. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

8 minutes ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

I know, most ATGMs are not designed to work on the move. I don´t want to use the weapon on the move, but while coming to a halt on a "pause". If a vehicle stops for 90 seconds because of a pause, this would be probably enough time to fire both TOWs into the target and even reload them.

"Pause" , fire then retreat works for infantry ATGM team, but it doesn't work for ATGM vehicle. it looks like that on a vehicle any movement order will override the action to fire ATGM

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

@chuckdykeYes, if you play the game in the usual way, how it is supposed to be, this TacAI behaviour is good, it even helps me in my case. I just switch the perspective to the Soviets, using at Tank Battalion Task force. They have 3 Tank companies and 1 motor rifle battalion on BMP. If I let the player control this one BMP company, I get rid of both problems, the limitations of the AI with mouting and dismounting vehicles AND the ATGM with moving vehicles. Then I just have to move the Tanks in my Battleplan, which is a rather simple task of fire and movement without anything special.

The unoffical slogan of the German Tank forces quite fits here: "Breit fahren, schmal denken" (Drive broad, think narrow)

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[CHEqTRO]

43 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

Bottom line is that you are trying to do something that the engine isn't designed to do.  It is designed on the premise that the player on a given side is going to issue commands to all units at regular intervals so it is hardly surprising that you are not getting the results you expect.

I think the real issue here is not so much that he cannot do that particular experimental scenario, as much that ATGM vehicles are deprived of doing shoot and scoot tactics in CM games, which is basically the lifeblood of such kind of vehicles in real life (and as such, they should also be in the game).

This actually explains some till now unexplained situations where i tried using this tactic in SF2 to not avail. I think the coding team should look into this, hopefully for the 5 version update; as one of the main ways of use of ATGM vehicles is impossible to replicate in the engine (specially now with the release of Cold War, where ATGM vehicles were so predominant)

[chuckdyke]

 

@Dr.Fusselpulli if it is the AT-3 Sagger you may need a pause of 20 seconds for the missile just to hit the target. The operator doesn't have a sight. He controls the missile in the manner of a wire-controlled toy plane. Like the Egyptian army in the Yom Kippur war, they used them at mass. That time they had surprise on their side. Single use is very much a suicide mission. I think SF2 got it spot on, Leopard 2 take them out whilst firing on the move at full speed. I don't think a troop of M60's will have much of a problem. They will have a problem if 20 missiles or more are heading their way. Quantity is a quality in its own right.   

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

Yes, IF it is possible rather easily to restrict the ability of ATGM vehicles to use their weapon not on the trigger "Waypoint exist" but Driver is "Driving" that would be great. Because this information exist in the game, you can see what individual soldiers are doing right now.

[Combatintman]

Just now, CHEqTRO said:

I think the real issue here is not so much that he cannot do that particular experimental scenario, as much that ATGM vehicles are deprived of doing shoot and scoot tactics in CM games, which is basically the lifeblood of such kind of vehicles in real life (and as such, they should also be in the game).

This actually explains some till now unexplained situations where i tried using this tactic in SF2 to not avail. I think the coding team should look into this, hopefully for the 5 version update; as one of the main ways of use of ATGM vehicles is impossible to replicate in the engine (specially now with the release of Cold War, where ATGM vehicles were so predominant)

No it isn't - he wants to script the moves of a large proportion of the player side force from mission start to mission end by stacking commands.  The engine is not designed to do that.  Shoot and scoot is possible with player intervention.  Does it need improvement - sure and there is a case for either the TAC AI to handle this or there to be a 'shoot and scoot' command.  But it isn't the issue - the issue is that someone is trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail and is getting predictable results.  Sometimes with mission design you just have to accept what is achievable and what isn't. 

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, CHEqTRO said:

ATGM vehicles are deprived of doing shoot and scoot

Maximum speed	115 m/s (410 km/h) (9M14M, 9M14P1) 130 m/s (470 km/h) (Malyutka-2, Malyutka-2F)[5]

 Do your sums how much time they need for your shoot and scoot tactics. It comes close to a full turn in WeGo.  

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

4 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

@Dr.Fusselpulli if it is the AT-3 Sagger you may need a pause of 20 seconds for the missile just to hit the target.

No, the vehicle will never fire on a pause right now. Not 20 seconds, and not a string of 10 waypoints with 90 seconds pauses. Which would be 15 minutes, or half the scenario on the standard setting of a 30 minutes scenario. It is not a question of time, it is a question if waypoints still exist.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[Erwin]

In CMSF2 I have successfully used FAST FORWARD to a position where a TOW-equipped Humvee can target and shoot an enemy, plus a 10-15 second PAUSE followed by a REVERSE.  This works at longer ranges (1 Km+).  IIRC at shorter ranges the ATGM vehicle may retreat as soon as it sees an enemy that can kill it.

Do you think that this tactic is no longer possible in CMCW?

[chuckdyke]

1 minute ago, Dr.Fusselpulli said:

20 seconds

It is the time the missile needs to cover 2km> It could very well be that the designers don't consider poor tactics when they designed the game. 

[CHEqTRO]

14 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

No it isn't - he wants to script the moves of a large proportion of the player side force from mission start to mission end by stacking commands.  The engine is not designed to do that.  Shoot and scoot is possible with player intervention.  Does it need improvement - sure and there is a case for either the TAC AI to handle this or there to be a 'shoot and scoot' command.  But it isn't the issue - the issue is that someone is trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail and is getting predictable results.  Sometimes with mission design you just have to accept what is achievable and what isn't. 

Yeah I fully understand that. My point of complain is not wheter that kind of scenario design is viable or not, I can see why its really pushing the engine to its limit. However, what I mean, is that you cannot, as of right now, select an ATGM vehicle, plot a movement to a crest, give it a pause of 30 seconds, fire its ATGM, and then reverse it to safety. That is a real life tactic ( and a very useful one) and as such it should be able to be replicated in a game that strives to be the closest it can be to a tactical simulator.

13 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Maximum speed	115 m/s (410 km/h) (9M14M, 9M14P1) 130 m/s (470 km/h) (Malyutka-2, Malyutka-2F)[5]

 Do your sums how much time they need for your shoot and scoot tactics. It comes close to a full turn in WeGo.  

That is true in the case of long range engagements, which I suppose are more common in CMCW, however in case of shorter ranges (and better and faster ATGM systems, which make an appearence in SF2 and BS) you can achieve a hit in like 15-20 seconds. In that case, giving it a full minute interval its just excesive and calling for the vehicle to get toasted, specially in the more lethal modern setting

Edited May 3, 2021 by CHEqTRO

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

16 minutes ago, Erwin said:

In CMSF2 I have successfully used FAST FORWARD to a position where a TOW-equipped Humvee can target and shoot an enemy, plus a 10-15 second PAUSE followed by a REVERSE.  This works at longer ranges (1 Km+).  IIRC at shorter ranges the ATGM vehicle may retreat as soon as it sees an enemy that can kill it.

Do you think that this tactic is no longer possible in CMCW?

Are you sure? I just tested it on an open field, using a M151A2 TOW and an enemy Abrams as a target.
I FAST FORWARD forwards, 1:30 minute PAUSE. Then REVERSE.
The TOW vehicle only fired after it reached the reversed position. So yes, this tactic is no longer possible, but I doubt you remeber it correctly, because I assume it was never possible. Why would Battlefront change the vehicle behaviour to something worse?

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli

[Dr.Fusselpulli]

30 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

the issue is that someone is trying to use a screwdriver to hammer a nail and is getting predictable results.

Yes, that is true. I have to live with what we have. As I said, I will change the perspective of who you will play to deal with this issue. I know I am doing something the game isn´t suppose to have, AI controlled allied forces.
I think this is a great way to add immersion, to show that the battle in which you fight is not a single isolated event, but part of a bigger picture. And that the player is not the commander in charge to make every decision, but only one cog in the gear of the war.

However this shoot and scoot maneuver is something that should be possible even for normal players. I used this tactics regulary with vehicles, to move forward, give a target arc or a fire order and a few seconds pause for the vehicle to fire, and then reverse within the same turn.

Edited May 3, 2021 by Dr.Fusselpulli