Some tank duel tests (CMBN)

[Drifter Man]

I'll add more info as I go on with my tests. Current plan:

• Complete spotting tests for major AFVs
• Effect of spotting crew experience
• Effect of the spotting vehicle being hull down (hull crew cannot see)
• Effect of optics having been destroyed
• Effect of having a tentative contact

[domfluff]

@Drifter Man Sounds great, especially the last point.

Not relevant to these tests, but since I was thinking about them, you might want to try these later. There are two outstanding mysteries which don't have good answers yet:

1) What effect on direct-fire accuracy, if any, does the Leadership stat have?

The manual talks about Leadership increasing accuracy of fires, but Josey Wales' soft factor and C2 tests did not show a conclusive advantage. 

2) If there is no effect on accuracy, what are the differences between motivation and leadership for clearing suppression?

Motivation level and Leadership in Josey's tests appeared to do the same job - they mostly cleared suppression at a faster rate. If they are identical in effect, then that's important, as Leadership levels cost more than motivation in QB terms.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Drifter Man said:

Complete spotting tests for major AFVs

You could include mounted infantry? Like Soviet tank riders also the tank would be on hunt when it has mounted infantry. 

[Drifter Man]

On 11/2/2021 at 10:11 PM, domfluff said:

@Drifter Man Sounds great, especially the last point.

Not relevant to these tests, but since I was thinking about them, you might want to try these later. There are two outstanding mysteries which don't have good answers yet:

1) What effect on direct-fire accuracy, if any, does the Leadership stat have?

2) If there is no effect on accuracy, what are the differences between motivation and leadership for clearing suppression?

Thanks - I want to focus on AFVs for the time being. When I try to do too many things at once, I end up not doing any of them very well.

When I did my infantry small arms tests, I accidentally ran some tests with Cautious and Nervous units due to combat stress (I tried to isolate the tested weapon by killing some unwanted team members). I noticed that these teams fired by about 20% more and but hit about 20% less than OK teams. After that I made sure that only fresh teams without casualties participated in the tests.

The likely answer to your mystery 1) is that by making the units more resistant to combat stress and combat shock through Leadership and Motivation modifiers, as Josey Wales explains, you can make them shoot better after they have taken casualties. But I know you would like to see numbers

On 11/2/2021 at 11:06 PM, chuckdyke said:

You could include mounted infantry? Like Soviet tank riders also the tank would be on hunt when it has mounted infantry. 

Not in the system I am currently using for the spotting ability, which measures the probability of spotting in one 7-second spotting cycle - this infantry-assisted spotting will take more spotting cycles to play out (infantry spots, passes on to the vehicle, the vehicle spots). But I have an idea that I can try out. I'll get back to you. It would be interesting to know if you can give an AFV an advantage in tank vs tank situations by placing a few riders on it.

[chuckdyke]

8 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

It would be interesting to know if you can give an AFV an advantage in tank vs tank situations by placing a few riders on it.

I watched some interviews on YouTube of the Germans putting infantry on the Stug III for this reason. 

[Drifter Man]

On 11/2/2021 at 11:06 PM, chuckdyke said:

You could include mounted infantry? Like Soviet tank riders also the tank would be on hunt when it has mounted infantry. 

I added a few Pz IV vs Pz IV duels using the same rules as described at the start of this thread. This time in CMRT, to enable tank riders.

 

Table 10. Effect of assisting infantry. Both AFVs are stationary on Grass. The infantry is a 3-man German Scout Team with binoculars. CMRT v2.11

Attacker		Defender
Opened up, no infantry [R7]	50%	49%	[R7] Opened up, no infantry
Opened up, tank riders	56%	43%	Opened up, no infantry
Opened up, infantry nearby	56%	42%	Opened up, no infantry
Buttoned up, no infantry [R8]	47%	49%	[R8] Buttoned up, no infantry
Buttoned up, tank riders	74%	24%	Buttoned up, no infantry
Buttoned up, infantry nearby	74%	24%	Buttoned up, no infantry
Buttoned up, infantry nearby	48%	51%	Opened up, no infantry

The assistance of infantry improves the chance of the attacker. The advantage provided by infantry is greater when both opponents are buttoned up. At this range (600 m), help of infantry makes the chances of a buttoned up vehicle approximately even against a vehicle with hatches open. It makes no difference if the infantry is on the tank as tank riders or on the ground nearby.

[chuckdyke]

That is when I found the Stug III highly effective. Up to one km. To operate without infantry is not a good idea in any mode. I remember to keep the tank unbuttoned.  

[Erwin]

Maybe am misunderstanding the chart.   I thought it meant that buttoned up with inf riders or inf nearby had 74% chance of spotting the enemy?  

How close does "nearby inf" have to be to give this bonus?

Also, what if the riders or "nearby" inf are a single man or two man team with no binoculars?

xnt test btw.  Can't recall anyone ever doing this one b4.  Thanks Drifter Man!

[akd]

You are misreading.  Wins 74% of duels.

[Bud Backer]

I feel really silly asking this but what are the [R1] etc marks for ?

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, Drifter Man said:

I added a few Pz IV vs Pz IV duels using the same rules as described at the start of this thread. This time in CMRT, to enable tank riders.

 

Table 10. Effect of assisting infantry. Both AFVs are stationary on Grass. The infantry is a 3-man German Scout Team with binoculars. CMRT v2.11

Attacker		Defender
Opened up, no infantry [R7]	50%	49%	[R7] Opened up, no infantry
Opened up, tank riders	56%	43%	Opened up, no infantry
Opened up, infantry nearby	56%	42%	Opened up, no infantry
Buttoned up, no infantry [R8]	47%	49%	[R8] Buttoned up, no infantry
Buttoned up, tank riders	74%	24%	Buttoned up, no infantry
Buttoned up, infantry nearby	74%	24%	Buttoned up, no infantry
Buttoned up, infantry nearby	48%	51%	Opened up, no infantry

The assistance of infantry improves the chance of the attacker. The advantage provided by infantry is greater when both opponents are buttoned up. At this range (600 m), help of infantry makes the chances of a buttoned up vehicle approximately even against a vehicle with hatches open. It makes no difference if the infantry is on the tank as tank riders or on the ground nearby.

It seems to me this test doesn't show the effect of infantry, but the effect of having a contact marker. The percentages are almost identical to the ones in your test to show the effect of having a contact marker for the enemy tank.

So what I think happens is that the 3-man team immediately spots the enemy tank, and then transfer the contact marker to the friendly tank.

You don't need to have infantry close to your tank, only to get a contact marker. And when you have the contact marker, you don't get any additional spotting help from infantry, I think.

[Erwin]

2 hours ago, akd said:

You are misreading.  Wins 74% of duels.

Ok... but one has to spot the enemy tank to shoot at it.  Once spotted presumably the speed of aiming and getting the first shot off is a standard amount of time (depending on the unit's experience).  Speed of spotting would seem to be the critical item re who wins duels.

[Drifter Man]

18 hours ago, Erwin said:

Maybe am misunderstanding the chart.   I thought it meant that buttoned up with inf riders or inf nearby had 74% chance of spotting the enemy?

Yep as @akd said, wins 74% of duels at 600 m (when both tanks are buttoned up; 56% when both are opened up; this shows that the infantry matters less when the tank commander can see for himself).

It is the same setup as described at the start of this thread. Recently I started talking about a different test to measure the probability of spotting a target in a single spotting event. This new test is not suitable for measuring the effect of infantry (it takes, presumably, more than one spotting event to get the contact via infantry), so I returned to the duel setup to measure this.

18 hours ago, Erwin said:

How close does "nearby inf" have to be to give this bonus?

I don't know, but I assume it may be similar to voice range for infantry C2 links... and depend on the terrain between the infantry and the vehicle. In this case the infantry was on an adjacent tile.

18 hours ago, Erwin said:

Also, what if the riders or "nearby" inf are a single man or two man team with no binoculars?

I assume the effect will be smaller - fewer eyes. The tests take a lot of computer running time, so I can't test every possibility. In addition, they are not very precise at just 1000 trials. I might not even be able to tell the difference.

18 hours ago, Erwin said:

xnt test btw.  Can't recall anyone ever doing this one b4.  Thanks Drifter Man!

Cheers!

12 hours ago, Erwin said:

Ok... but one has to spot the enemy tank to shoot at it.  Once spotted presumably the speed of aiming and getting the first shot off is a standard amount of time (depending on the unit's experience).  Speed of spotting would seem to be the critical item re who wins duels.

I agree - the duels are designed as an approximation of a spotting test - who sees the enemy first is more likely to win.

Edited November 16, 2021 by Drifter Man

[chuckdyke]

19 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

I assume the effect will be smaller - fewer eyes. The tests take a lot of computer running time, so I can't test every possibility. In addition, they are not very precise at just 1000 trials. I might not even be able to tell the difference.

Here infantry spots enemy infantry reliably and passes on contacts to the AFV. This is already invaluable with plotting area fire. In other games in RT infantry spots enemy armor without binoculars at 1km. Have a veteran scouting party on the engine deck. Took your advice and leave it buttoned up. In Battle for Normandy unfortunately infantry can't hitch a ride on tanks. To pass on intel they need to be adjacent to the AFV which must be unbuttoned.

[Drifter Man]

13 hours ago, Bud Backer said:

I feel really silly asking this but what are the [R1] etc marks for ?

Reference test cases. Here, R7 and R8 a re symmetrical setups without any infantry, which should end up around 50:50 - and did. This is to ensure that I have placed everything correctly.

[chuckdyke]

On 11/3/2021 at 8:36 PM, Drifter Man said:

The likely answer to your mystery 1) is that by making the units more resistant to combat stress and combat shock through Leadership and Motivation modifiers,

If a squad takes fire the squad is under stress. I find when you split up the squad the unaffected members go back to ok. Sometimes it is only temporary but long enough to return fire effectively. 

[Drifter Man]

13 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

It seems to me this test doesn't show the effect of infantry, but the effect of having a contact marker. The percentages are almost identical to the ones in your test to show the effect of having a contact marker for the enemy tank.

So what I think happens is that the 3-man team immediately spots the enemy tank, and then transfer the contact marker to the friendly tank.

You don't need to have infantry close to your tank, only to get a contact marker. And when you have the contact marker, you don't get any additional spotting help from infantry, I think.

Roughly speaking, yes. But the tests I did with contact markers were with the Attacker moving in on Hunt against a stationary defender, whereas these most recent cases were done with both vehicles stationary.

The age of the contact marker might have an effect, too.

[Drifter Man]

9 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

To pass on intel they need to be adjacent to the AFV which must be unbuttoned.

Based on the CMRT tests that I have just done, contact sharing works even with a buttoned up vehicle (note that the scout team I used had no radio).

[chuckdyke]

3 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

contact sharing works even with a buttoned up vehicle

Ok thanks for all your effort.

[Drifter Man]

38 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

Ok thanks for all your effort.

Happy spotting. Assigning an infantry team to a tank seems like a good idea.

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Drifter Man said:

Happy spotting. Assigning an infantry team to a tank seems like a good idea.

The Germans did it for real with the Stug III. At least that is one reference I know of. The 'Tankodesantiki company here is used in this battle for exactly this role. The game doesn't allow infantry on the Valentines. With the radios on the AFV's the C2 of the Soviet army is manageable. 

[Bulletpoint]

But is there any effect of infantry if both tanks already have contact markers for each other?

[chuckdyke]

20 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

But is there any effect of infantry if both tanks already have contact markers for each other?

I imagine in a tank your situational awareness is through tunnel vision. It is very rare a tank spots before infantry does. If a tank has a contact marker he also shares it with nearby infantry. 

Edited November 16, 2021 by chuckdyke

[akd]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

But is there any effect of infantry if both tanks already have contact markers for each other?

Why would there be?

[Drifter Man]

8 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

But is there any effect of infantry if both tanks already have contact markers for each other?

I would not expect any - if all the infantry does is passing a contact marker.