Surrendering Troops and Contact Sharing

[Raging Al]

Do surrendering units still share contact information up to the point that they disappear from the map?

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, Raging Al said:

Do surrendering units still share contact information up to the point that they disappear from the map?

Yes.  Abandoned vehicles do not but troops do. 

[Erwin]

Are you certain about that?  In a recent game, there was a friendly which spent most of 30 minutes "surrendering" (but never did cos he was a Brit) but still seemed to give info on surrounding enemy.  On the other hand I can't recall an abandoned vehicle giving info.  But, haven't been looking for that.  No wait...  my troops never abandon their vehicles due to superb leadership!  

[MOS:96B2P]

10 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Are you certain about that?  In a recent game, there was a friendly which spent most of 30 minutes "surrendering" (but never did cos he was a Brit) but still seemed to give info on surrounding enemy.  On the other hand I can't recall an abandoned vehicle giving info.  But, haven't been looking for that.  No wait...  my troops never abandon their vehicles due to superb leadership!  

We agree I think.  We both said the same thing.  Surrendering troops give info and abandoned vehicles do not give info. 

[John1966]

Why do some guys take a full 30 minutes to become white flags while others do it the minute the enemy turns up in the same AS?

I had some last night who I had to give up waiting for them to white flag and advanced my guys anyway. They disappeared some time later. In one case I'd never even gotten around to entering their AS.

[Lethaface]

3 minutes ago, John1966 said:

Why do some guys take a full 30 minutes to become white flags while others do it the minute the enemy turns up in the same AS?

I had some last night who I had to give up waiting for them to white flag and advanced my guys anyway. They disappeared some time later. In one case I'd never even gotten around to entering their AS.

Non-surrendering enemies nearby most probably.

[John1966]

2 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Non-surrendering enemies nearby most probably.

They'd surrendered. They just hadn't become white flags and disappeared.

Just knelt there with their hands up while my guys stared at them.

[Lethaface]

6 minutes ago, John1966 said:

They'd surrendered. They just hadn't become white flags and disappeared.

Just knelt there with their hands up while my guys stared at them.

Yes, what I meant is that they will not raise the white flags and disappear if there are other enemy units near who aren't surrendering (yet). So technically troops who are still on the map haven't fully surrendered yet, they are in the process of surrendering. If you moved your forces out, the surrendering ones would probably pick up their weapons and resume the fight (although in poor morale state).

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Lethaface

[John1966]

2 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

If you moved your forces out, the surrendering ones would probably pick up their weapons and resume the fight (although in poor morale state).

No, they disappeared after I'd given up trying to take them prisoner.

As far as I understand, the only time a pixeltruppen stops surrendering is when friendly non-broken units (or perhaps just non-surrendering) arrive in the same AS. (Which definitely didn't happen here)

[Lethaface]

4 minutes ago, John1966 said:

No, they disappeared after I'd given up trying to take them prisoner.

As far as I understand, the only time a pixeltruppen stops surrendering is when friendly non-broken units (or perhaps just non-surrendering) arrive in the same AS. (Which definitely didn't happen here)

Than probably the enemy units near had moved away or perished at that time. You don't need troops in the same AS to stop units from white flagging. Not sure if you need to be in the same AS to get them to pick up their rifles again. I think it's more important that there shouldn't be enemy units near anymore.

Your question was why does it sometimes takes 30min, to which the answer imo is that it can take 30min or longer if there are still other troops who aren't surrendering nearby.

From the manual:

"Heavily shaken or panicked troops in proximity to strong enemy units may decide to throw down their weapons and attempt to surrender. Surrendering units are indicated by raising their hands. Surrendering units cannot receive any further commands.
Surrendered soldiers appear as MIA (Missing in Action) on the After Action Report. After a short while (usually about 1-2 minutes), units attempting to surrender “suc-
ceed” to do so, and disappear under a white flag icon.
It is possible to prevent units from surrendering, by “rescuing” them. In order to
do this, you need to first clear out all nearby enemies, and move friendly units into the proximity. If successful, the surrendering units will return to their normal unsurrendered status (but will probably still be panicked).
Troops will not fire on surrendering enemies, but they will fire on unsurrendered ones
that may be nearby, so it is possible for surrendering troops to be hit indirectly."

[Erwin]

What nationality are the inf refusing to surrender in a timely manner?  Am wondering if there may be a bias favoring NATO troops. In the case I experienced there were no friendly troops nearby and the Allied unit was surrounded by enemies (as it could still pass on that info).

Edited November 26, 2020 by Erwin

[Lethaface]

I haven't had any issues making allied / NATO troops, in WW2 or modern, hoist the flag.

[Erwin]

Maybe it's due to the quality of the CO?   

[John1966]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

What nationality are the inf refusing to surrender in a timely manner? 

These were German (WWII).

1 hour ago, Lethaface said:

You don't need troops in the same AS to stop units from white flagging.

As far as I'm aware there were no non-surrendering friendlies anywhere near them.

But they did share an AS with good ordered hostiles (my guys) for several minutes.

To be honest, if they're going to be sat there with their hands up with enemy troops stood right next to them and they don't white flag and disappear, they're not really surrendering. In fact, they'd still be legitimate targets.

But then why do the white flag disappearance some time later when there's no one there to accept the surrender?

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

After a short while (usually about 1-2 minutes), units attempting to surrender “succeed” to do so, and disappear under a white flag icon.

Basically, this is what didn't happen.

2 hours ago, Lethaface said:

It is possible to prevent units from surrendering, by “rescuing” them. In order to
do this, you need to first clear out all nearby enemies, and move friendly units into the proximity.

Yes, I've done that to my own pixeltruppen quite a few times. If they were in a separated team but you get them back into their original squad they also return to "good order" as well (assuming that's the state of the squad).

I think I preferred it in CMx1 when control passed over to you and you just ordered them off the field (although I can understand why they changed it).

[Warts 'n' all]

1 hour ago, John1966 said:

As far as I'm aware...

This is the crucial phrase. 

We the player don't have to be aware of active enemy units nearby. As long as the guys with their hands up are within a certain distance of their mates then the white flag won't appear, irrespective of whether we have sight, sound or no knowledge at all of those nearby enemy units. So, the rule is, if no white flag appears, either blast any place where you suspect other enemy might be or kill the guys with their hands up.

[Lethaface]

1 hour ago, John1966 said:

As far as I'm aware there were no non-surrendering friendlies anywhere near them.

But they did share an AS with good ordered hostiles (my guys) for several minutes.

Not ruling out a glitch or whatever, but I have learned to read this behavior as an indicator that there are still enemies (or friendly to the surrendermonkeys) around. Sometimes those can be quite far away, and or inside a house or some place that's not straightforward.

There is a solution: warcrimes

Especially in PBEMs surrendering units can be a menace, because they can provide info to the other player through the eyes of the surrendering troops. 

 

1 hour ago, John1966 said:

To be honest, if they're going to be sat there with their hands up with enemy troops stood right next to them and they don't white flag and disappear, they're not really surrendering. In fact, they'd still be legitimate targets.

But then why do the white flag disappearance some time later when there's no one there to accept the surrender?

Basically, this is what didn't happen.

Yes, I've done that to my own pixeltruppen quite a few times. If they were in a separated team but you get them back into their original squad they also return to "good order" as well (assuming that's the state of the squad).

I think I preferred it in CMx1 when control passed over to you and you just ordered them off the field (although I can understand why they changed it).

I agree about the legitimate targets: if enemy troops are supposedly surrendering but keep calling info about my troops to other nearby enemies, they become spies and therefore ripe for summary execution. Area target autocannon HE (or larger if no friendlies near) works best for this, but handgrenades suffice as well. Sometimes HMG fire works too. 

I don't really have too much issues with it, although it could be improved I guess.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Lethaface

[Lethaface]

6 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

This is the crucial phrase. 

We the player don't have to be aware of active enemy units nearby. As long as the guys with their hands up are within a certain distance of their mates then the white flag won't appear, irrespective of whether we have sight, sound or no knowledge at all of those nearby enemy units. So, the rule is, if no white flag appears, either blast any place where you suspect other enemy might be or kill the guys with their hands up.

exactly

[John1966]

55 minutes ago, Warts 'n' all said:

We the player don't have to be aware of active enemy units nearby.

You'll have to trust me on this. It was quite a few turns ago and there was definitely no-one near them.

Depending on what you mean by "near". How near is near?

They'd been sat there with their hands up for a while already because I didn't think it was safe to enter their building due to the nearby church. But it turned out it was empty by then (except for dead Germans) so I went in to this neighbouring building to pick up the prisoners.

I can confirm the village was not cleared at the time but no-one in at least 100m (approx). In fact their nearest friendly had also surrendered (and he was well away from them anyway). And he white flagged without anyone entering his AS. But I had a squad babysitting this lot for several minutes while everyone else went on past. I gave up when it got silly and assumed it was a bug. When they eventually white flagged (because they did in the end), I hadn't discovered any nearby unknowns.

52 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Not ruling out a glitch or whatever...

I'm going for glitch because I've not seen it before. They normally white flag at the end of the minute you enter their AS.

52 minutes ago, Lethaface said:

Especially in PBEMs surrendering units can be a menace, because they can provide info to the other player through the eyes of the surrendering troops. 

Yeah, that's a bit naughty. Soon as they stick their hands up they should stop relaying info.

If they end up unsurrendering (which is not a word), that'd actually be a good feature. In fact if you could rescue them after being properly taken prisoner it'd be even better. They'd know all sorts.

Edited November 27, 2020 by John1966

[Sgt.Squarehead]

In CMSF2/CMBS, I just assume you haven't taken their mobile phones yet. 

[John1966]

47 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

In CMSF2/CMBS, I just assume you haven't taken their mobile phones yet. 

Taking selfies with the enemy is a gamey to get spotting info. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I just had a dude stuck in a building full of Jihadis.....He was chatting away until someone brought out a big white sheet.  We don't know what happened to him after that. 

PS - Tracking unsecure phones is a very real way of providing targeting info.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Erwin]

5 hours ago, John1966 said:

If they were in a separated team but you get them back into their original squad they also return to "good order" as well (assuming that's the state of the squad

In CM1 surrendered units came under the control of the other side and could be ordered to march off to a holding area.  Good order friendlies could rescue them by getting close enuff, but when these POW's returned to their own side it was without weapons.  IIRC in CM2 rescued/liberated units seem to have their original weapons(?)

[John1966]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

IIRC in CM2 rescued/liberated units seem to have their original weapons(?)

They didn't have their weapons in CMx1 because the situation was different. They'd probably be marching off the field.

In CMx2, if they surrender but haven't become white flags (at which point they can't be "rescued" anyway), they'll still have their weapons next to them.

So if they're trying to surrender (after which they don't move) and the enemy doesn't actually take them prisoner, but your guys get close enough first and tell them to "pull themselves together", they can pick up their weapons and do whatever.

[Raging Al]

Thanks for all the replies.  In this particular case (CMFI/R2V) it’s a German pixeltruppen that’s surrendered.  I can tell that one of his colleagues has scarpered due to the icon moving further and further away from the guy who’s surrendering.  He’s been hanging around like a bad smell for about 5 or 6 moves, and I’m reluctant to leave him without a guard in case he becomes active again, but it’s really annoying if he’s still sharing contact information.  Is there anyway of “silencing” him? 

[Lethaface]

44 minutes ago, Raging Al said:

Thanks for all the replies.  In this particular case (CMFI/R2V) it’s a German pixeltruppen that’s surrendered.  I can tell that one of his colleagues has scarpered due to the icon moving further and further away from the guy who’s surrendering.  He’s been hanging around like a bad smell for about 5 or 6 moves, and I’m reluctant to leave him without a guard in case he becomes active again, but it’s really annoying if he’s still sharing contact information.  Is there anyway of “silencing” him? 

Area target his position. This works best with HE, so if you have infantry within 32m use a target (briefly) so they can chuck grenades. If you have HE chuckers just area target him (no target light because that's only MGs).