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I am currently half way through a PBEM CMBN quick battle with a friend, I am the Germans and he is the Americans, and we are both shock at the ability of the U.S. 37mm AT guns in the Stuart Tanks to knock out MkIV's at ranges over 400 mtrs. Indeed there ability to penetrate the gun mantlet at these ranges. I could understand the 37mm's being affective against side armour or at very close range but against frontal armour  at 400+ mtrs?!

It also seems strange given that in a previous battle my German 50mm paks rounds bounced of early model Shermans at less than 200mtrs. Ok I didn't expect them to be devastating but expected some damage.

Has anyone else come across this?

Perhaps I am underestimating the power of these weapons and I should start to fear M8 armoured cars.

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5 hours ago, Flock said:

I should start to fear M8 armoured cars.

Against infantry and AT guns M8s are fearsome with their canister rounds, and very enjoyable to play with

As for the 37mm AT, what you describe does sound a little too powerful to me but Panzer IVs aren't the toughest nuts.

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yep, the canister rounds are terrible to be on the receiving end of.

I just did not expect a knock out blow through the mantlet at 460+mtrs. Sure enough, the MkIV is not the 'toughest nuts' but none the less!

I have lost 6 MkIV's, 2 at less than 100mtrs ( I can go along with that ) 2 have been dismounted ( again I can go along with that after repeated hits and lots of spalling armour)

and two at over 400 mtrs 1 through the mantlet and 1 through the turret front. There have been lots of penetrations at 400 mtrs+

Edited by Flock
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Just as a small follow-up.  I was just playing a Fortress Italy battle as Italians.  With a smile on my face and no expectation of success I was advancing 5 Renault R35s (with 37mm guns) cautiously towards the US troops I knew were waiting.  To my surprise, they started spraying canister at anything that popped it's head up.  I have more respect for R35s now 😉.  Sadly they don't carry many canister rounds though...

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10 hours ago, Flock said:

I am currently half way through a PBEM CMBN quick battle with a friend, I am the Germans and he is the Americans, and we are both shock at the ability of the U.S. 37mm AT guns in the Stuart Tanks to knock out MkIV's at ranges over 400 mtrs. Indeed there ability to penetrate the gun mantlet at these ranges. I could understand the 37mm's being affective against side armour or at very close range but against frontal armour  at 400+ mtrs?!

It also seems strange given that in a previous battle my German 50mm paks rounds bounced of early model Shermans at less than 200mtrs. Ok I didn't expect them to be devastating but expected some damage.

Has anyone else come across this?

Perhaps I am underestimating the power of these weapons and I should start to fear M8 armoured cars.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with U.S. 37mm penetrating the PZIVs Turret Face of 50-60mm Armor out to medium range...However, I've always had a problem of it reliably penetrating its Turret Mantle of 80mm rounded. 

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I must correct my previous statement that I had lost 6 tanks, 1 was still crewed merely having had all its weapon systems knocked out following the penetration of the gun mantlet.

In the end Combat Mission cannot be 100% accurate so we must accept that war is full of surprises and go on to fight another day having learnt a valuable lesson, Always bring along the Tigers!

 

Edited by Flock
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Just had the satisfaction of taking out 2 PzIVs with a Greyhound, side on at 120 meters. Turns out the 37mm is remarkably effective against PzIVs even later models. At least according to this source....

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/ww2-armor/the-usual-suspects-pt-4-american-tank-cannons-versus-the-panzer-iv-h/899968477016987/

Quote

At 86.1 mm thick on the front plate, the 37mm M3 gun would have had a difficult time penetrating unless at point blank range and the 75mm would fail at longer range. The mantlet is also not much protection at 50.9mm effective, the 37mm could penetrate the front of the turret at ranges over 1500 yards.

 

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14 minutes ago, AlanSA said:

Just had the satisfaction of taking out 2 PzIVs with a Greyhound, side on at 120 meters. Turns out the 37mm is remarkably effective against PzIVs even later models. At least according to this source....

 

https://www.facebook.com/notes/ww2-armor/the-usual-suspects-pt-4-american-tank-cannons-versus-the-panzer-iv-h/899968477016987/

 

I think they mistook the Turret Mantle for Turret Face as a whole...Turret Mantle and Upper Hull is same around 80mm+

Edited by JoMc67
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I've seen Greyhounds knocking out Panzer IV's frontally from 600m plus.

The Panzer IV is a rubbish tank in this game, IMO. Probably it's modelled correctly - I honestly don't know. But you need to play it as an armoured car because it's so fragile.

The only real problem I have with it is that it seems way overpriced in terms of points in the game for what you get.

 

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1 hour ago, Flock said:

Screen Shot 2020-10-26 at 21.16.45.png lots of hits apparently with mantlet and front hull penetrations, although I can only see bounces!? She is reduced to being a tractor with no weapons systems left working.

You have some hit decal mod active that doesn't show penetrations?

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Checking Spielberger, the later PzIVs all have 50mm of turret face armor, inclined at 80 degrees. The mantlet (called "roller mount") is also 50mm, curved.

As can be seen on the US Army's 37mm penetration tables, this puts the PzIV at risk of turret penetration somewhat beyond 500m.

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As far as I know I have no decal mods and can usually see penetrations. If my PBEM enemy has such a mod and I haven't, would I see it?

Having had a close look I have to say I cannot see penetrations on any of the vehicles in that battle, in the latest fight, against the same enemy, I can see all the penetrations.

So maybe you are right Bulletpoint.

 

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Thats what I thought. I am also fairly sure that my opponent wouldn't have a mod as he does not like messing with the files.

However, the hits as shown are all bright and shiny whereas, most hits that I can find in the  game I am currently playing are black. If it is round, I guess, it's a penetration and if it's sort of spread it's a bounce.

I have two types of appearances available in the Quick battle forces selector, they are 'Standard and Mixed cammo''. Is 'Mixed cammo'' a  'comes with the game' appearance, or have I acquired it with a  downloaded scenario. I have CMBN Big bundle and have not downloaded any 'stand alone' mods.

Edited by Flock
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Flock, Mixed Camo "comes with the game" but IIRC, may not show up depending on the dates of the scenario (and maybe the choice of units??). I haven't played, nor played with mods,  with mods in CMBN  for a long time.

About the hit decals, have you turned off shaders (or was it shadows?)?  I have had that happen before but it was a long time ago, right after hit decals were implemented, that I had that problem. It had to do with one or the other settings being turned off. But I don't recall if it had anything to do with a modded hit decal, which I do use.

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