Freyberg Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 39 minutes ago, markshot said: I suppose someone could do a paper on the unwritten rules. I agree with you to a point. If all scenario designers broke the rules, it would be very annoying - but when the rules are broken once in a while, in a creative and exciting way, it's actually kind of immersive and fun. As for briefings - I always assume they are flawed. I thought lying in briefings was a convention 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) I thought omission was a convention. Well, I am not saying this is the gospel ... it's my way of looking at it. I think designers make CM what it is. Yes, there is much you can do with the tools, but most people don't want to dig to that level. I am a software engineer. I read the manual to see what I own, but I don't plan to master it. I often read manual without ever building things with the products. Honestly, I just want to play games. Edited October 9, 2020 by markshot 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 I decided what I am going to do. Just play the scenarios I can win or lose under normal circumstances. At most 2 tries. I like playing smaller stuff; right now Tiny. But those suffer from the fact that shots taken at you are not Tiny. Thus, casualties are far more costly when you only have a few squads. Otherwise I do plan to spend more time with QBs. Is there a way to save or convert a QB into a scenario so that you can do further edits on it? Like the idea of adding reinforcements immediately comes to mind for spicing up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Yes... Simply load the map into the editor... Then you can tweek it however you chose... Remember to remove any unwanted AI plans... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 Here is something I don't understand. Isn't this like trying tickle yourself? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 I think i might have miss-read you question somewhat... What you can do...is to load the QB maps into the editor and use them in a scenario... What you can NOT do is to load a QB file with selected units and all and tweek that... No saved games can be loaded into the editor...unfortunatelly... That would be usefull for many reasons... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 No, it is me. My point was were is the suspense in read a murder mystery which I authored. So, now I create this scenario, and play it. But it suffers from fore-knowledge even worse than playing someone else's scenario three times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 IMHO if you are looking for "suspense" and hope to get it from playing your own CM2 scenarios...I belive you will be dissapointed. No matter how many AI plans they might have... If you get an idea for a scenario into your head and want to se how that set-up would play out...sure...design it ! play it...but "suspense"...probably not... The greatest "suspense" or reward you can expect to get from designing your own scenario is to see if you will be able to design it to work in the way you had intended...It can be quite challeging and rewarding if you succed. Then share it with the comunity ! and play someone elses scenario... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 I spent my career managing, design, and building systems. I know what engineering is like. In my early years, when I used to code, I allocated an extra day for final testing, but really it just wanted to watch my system run. I have been a beta and a guide writer. I have gotten to share my love of games. No, I just want to play. I am not opposed to doing a little work if it enhances game play, but I don't aspire to scenario designing or modding. Also, I think to do CM scenarios well you need some historical research, you either need a real historical context or a back story that fits into the real war. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 You are not alone. As mentioned in another thread, I also do not want to be a permanent beta tester. I belong to the fraternity that wants to start a game and enjoy the fun experience knowing that the rules and manuals that I spent days learning a while back are still valid and no new bugs have been introduced by another patch/update. Have also noticed the tendency to get cranky as I age... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 (edited) On 10/7/2020 at 3:42 PM, markshot said: Are tiny and small scenarios particularly prone to be riddles with a single solution which require lots of experimentation to happen across what in other communities would be called a "a level walk through"? To some extent yes, or they can certainly get that way.....It's harder to create a satisfying scenario for very small units IMHO. Getting the balance right can be very tricky, as the line between 'reasonable threat' & 'total overkill' is rather fine when dealing with very small units. Edited October 9, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Markshot... If you like small/tiny scenarios then take a look at... SeinfeldRules scenario thread If you have not already. These are some of the best small scenarios around imo... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted October 9, 2020 Share Posted October 9, 2020 Only playing a scenario you like once or twice is like only listening to a song you like once or twice. Or refusing on principle to watch your favorite movie when it pops up on late night TV. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 MikeyD, Yes and no. For the art of film making (I have taken a course on film making), many films are worth many viewing to study framing, lighting, character frame of reference, etc... They are impossible to fully appreciate in a single viewing. I will agree that scenario design is not just computer programming, but an art form, and as such may be better appreciated by multiple viewings. For me the scenario is a test; and I take as if it was RL; failure is failure. I may play again, but an initial failure means I failed to apply lessons I learned or failed to learn the right lessons. When I used to play chess, for beginners you are allowed take back moves. But real test of play is committing. What we have established is different players have different goals. These is no right or wrong way to play. You bought a game and you enjoy any way you chose. From CMx1, I developed a belief that all scenario can be won (not a decisive victory or surrender) on first play through since the designer has given you all the tools. But you provide strategy and tactics. I have become very comfortable with this way of playing. Losing is not a problem. If have 4 Shermans killed by an 88mm because I neither probed a road or look for dead ground, then I got what I deserve. As loss is fine for stupidity; I just don't like tricks. Like I remember one CMx1 scenario that somehow manage to embed an 88mm in a house. That was the only time I came across house that could kill a tank at 2000M. I didn't gain much from the experience. For me the fun is in studying the map, the forces, how the enemy might be set up, where can I move in safety ... its a scenario ... I tend not to be audacious, since I know the designer will punish "toujours l'audace" unlike RL. I only audacious towards scenario ends when I feel the enemy has been greatly weakened. In the last 10 minutes a fast tank push into the enemy rear can be the difference between a minor victory and surrender. Part of the fun of the game is trying judge how much opposition is still out there. You can still get punished and find an ATG deep in the rear. And you now have a draw out of a minor victory. All of this is exciting. Yes, I replayed the CMBO tutorial 20 times, but I had the full game already. Why? Because I flew flight sims. I had no concept of combined arms different aspect angles firing at tanks. Improved optics made a stug deadly at range. I was a total noob. So, I played over and over again learning the very basic leasons of ground combat. I do have the basic lessons down these days, but I am sure most of you would shred me to pieces in a pbem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markshot Posted October 9, 2020 Author Share Posted October 9, 2020 2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: To some extent yes, or they can certainly get that way.....It's harder to create a satisfying scenario for very small units IMHO. Getting the balance right can be very tricky, as the line between 'reasonable threat' & 'total overkill' is rather fine when dealing with very small units. I mainly played CMBB/CMAK. I longed for the day I could play the huge scenarios. That I had a computer up to the task. I finally got the PC. And you know what? I found the number of units extremely tedious. CM like most games does not scale very well. (Because it doesn't have AI agents.) Panther Games which was originally introduced to the world by a BFC publishing agreement scales better than any game I know because of intelligent agents. You can play play with 10 units or a 1000. The work load does not not increase 100X, but maybe 3X. Because you will be giving orders to Bde. It is truly an amazing system for operational WWII play. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 23 hours ago, MikeyD said: Or refusing on principle to watch your favorite movie when it pops up on late night TV. I wouldn't bother re-watching or re-reading a thriller when I already knew the "surprise" ending. It's the excitement of exploring new uncharted terrain and getting surprised that is a/the major part of the fun. It's the difference between setting out like Columbus to explore new worlds vs endlessly paddling around the same old pond. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Put some mines in the pond: Suddenly it's much more exciting! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 Yup... Until you know they are there of course... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 On 10/9/2020 at 5:22 AM, markshot said: * Don't put the deployment area in the enemy's LOS/LOF. After 20 years of CM, this is the first scenario I encountered men dying in the deployment area. Just like war, scenarios have conventions, and in CM setup and reinforcement tend to be special areas. I was thinking about this one... I would say the CM convention is the opposite. There is usually some part of each side's setup zone that is in LOF of the other side, seldom the whole zone, but some part of it. You have to do a quick check of LOF where you set up if you want to be sure of being in defilade. Most QB maps are like this - and I think it's a good idea. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimpleSimon Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 I think it's usually worth a disclaimer or a point in the briefing, but I don't think it's necessarily a problem to have sections of the deploy area exposed to fire. One must remember after all, that it can go both ways... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 It's always worth checking LOS from several points in the setup zone and placing units out of any potential enemy LOS (is possible). I sometimes get the impression however, that when the AI enemy units cannot see your units at start it gets confused. Maybe the AI relies on some intelligence or cheating to figure out which AI plan to use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 1 minute ago, Erwin said: Maybe the AI relies on some intelligence or cheating to figure out which AI plan to use. Nope.....The AI Plan is selected before you set-up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 Good to know... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 (edited) Wish I'd known it sooner TBH.....Based on what one sees (mostly in scenario author test mode), it's easy to assume the plan is selected when you click 'Go' (that's when AI units with random placement snap to their allocated locations). But as @IanL explained (& tests demonstrated) the plan has already been chosen at that point.....Randomly placed units will only ever snap to the same spot, no matter how many times you reload the save & click 'Go'. Edited October 11, 2020 by Sgt.Squarehead 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted October 11, 2020 Share Posted October 11, 2020 So the AI plan is selected when one starts the specific scenario or when one starts the game b4 selecting a scenario? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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