Book outlining Partisan Ops (for scenario generation?)

[Erwin]

Reading an excellent book "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder. 

While describing the East Front situation in general, it has a large section on Partisan and Anti-Partisan groups and their actions and Snyder outlines the operations of Partisan leaders like Bielski and Zorin and the Anti-Partisan formations under Kaminskii, Dirlewanger and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski.  

Interestingly the book outlines how the Partisan groups were often fighting each other as the various ethnic Communist partisans hated the nationalist Ukrainians and Polish partisans etc. while the Jewish partisans had their own agenda.

 

[rocketman]

Might pick that one up. I have wanted to read something by Timothy Snyder a long time.

[Haiduk]

5 hours ago, Erwin said:

while the Jewish partisans had their own agenda.

Jews mostly joined to Red partisans, because there were many Jews-communists on all levels of administrations. In whole there was total ruthless war of all against all. "Let the Pole murders the Ukrainian and the Ukrainain murders the Pole. If they both will murder a Jew by the way, we will only win because of that", said von dem Bach as I recall... 

There were several large anti-parisan operations, when Axis and USSR were forced to take frontline units with armor and aviation to help different security forces against partisans of all colors. Partisan groups had not only small arms, for example Polish Army Krayowa operated with several tankettes, armored tractors, guns and even one aircraft. Large Red partisan formations had good supply from "big land", so they also had a guns up to 76 mm. Ukrainians used trophy weapon, and in 1944-45, when their "forest army" was numbered (about 30 000 simultainously), they also used diffrent guns and captured armored vehicles, knowingly, for example they lost captured light tank of unknown type during assault of Tsuman town in 1944, which defended by Hungarian garrison.

Edited May 28, 2020 by Haiduk

[DMS]

On 5/28/2020 at 11:33 PM, Haiduk said:

Ukrainians used trophy weapon

Weren't they armed by Germans? No politics, just curious. That west Ukrainians folk songs: "Машингивери", "лента за лентой" - they are about Mg-34/42, I guess. DP was magazine fed.

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, DMS said:

Weren't they armed by Germans? No politics, just curious. That west Ukrainians folk songs: "Машингивери", "лента за лентой" - they are about Mg-34/42, I guess. DP was magazine fed.

This was short-time episode in mid of 1944, when Germans were leaving territory of Western Ukraine and UPA High Command at last allowed to commanders to negotiate with Axis units and make agreements "weapon in exchange on neutrality and safe pass without confrontations and on recon information about Red Army". Before this decision the same High Command restricted any contacts with Germans and several local commanders were executed for betrayal, when they tried to make contact with German units by they own. Most good relations was between UPA and Slovakian units, they often supplied Ukrainians with weapon and ammunition and as a rule sabotaged any orders of Germans, directed against UPA. Most bad relations were with Hungarians and Russian Cossacs in German service, so weapon from them Ukrainians got only in battles.  

UPA was established in the end of 1942, so most of weapon until this unofficial pact in 1944 were got from old stores, partially from OUN members in Ukrainian Shutzmanschaft, which by the order deserted from German service and went off to the forests. Further the weapon mostly captured in different actions against Red Partisan, Axis occupation forces and Armia Krayowa. After 1945 most of weapon already was captured Soviet. 

Лента за лентою - this also could be Maxim %) Though, most of weapon in 1943-45 was German/Hungarian with some number of Soviet, taken in in 1941. Unlike Red Partisans, UPA as well as their enemy Polish Armia Krayowa, operated in Ukraine territory, hadn't centralized supply and solved a problem with weapon and ammunition and as they could.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Haiduk

[DMS]

Thank you for informative answer.

13 minutes ago, Haiduk said:

Лента за лентою - this also could be Maxim %) Though, most of weapon in 1943-45 was German/Hungarian with some number of Soviet, taken in in 1941. Unlike Red Partisans, UPA as well as their enemy Polish Armia Krayowa, operated in Ukraine territory, hadn't centralized supply and solved a problem with weapon and ammunition and as they could.

Too heavy for partisans! So, major part - German weapons and may be some Soviet. (In 44-45, after the war weapons were replaced by soviet after some time, of course) But no huge German ammo loads with 1200+ rounds for a mg. How much did they carry? Some 50 round belts? It would be interesting too play battles partisans against partisans, with more important role of rifles. They had to rely on them as most ammo saving weapons, I guess.

[Aragorn2002]

On 5/28/2020 at 5:18 PM, Erwin said:

Reading an excellent book "Bloodlands" by Timothy Snyder. 

While describing the East Front situation in general, it has a large section on Partisan and Anti-Partisan groups and their actions and Snyder outlines the operations of Partisan leaders like Bielski and Zorin and the Anti-Partisan formations under Kaminskii, Dirlewanger and Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski.  

Interestingly the book outlines how the Partisan groups were often fighting each other as the various ethnic Communist partisans hated the nationalist Ukrainians and Polish partisans etc. while the Jewish partisans had their own agenda.

 

Also read; 'Sowjetische Partisanen 1941-1944: Mythos und Wirklichkeit' by the Polish author Bogdan Musial. A lot of these so-called 'partisans' were little more than gangs of heavy criminals who terrorized the local population and cut up every German or other opponent they could lay their hands on.

[Haiduk]

15 hours ago, DMS said:

Too heavy for partisans!

But they used by them. Large Red partisan groups received its by the air like more heavy artillery guns. Maxims transported on carts or packed on horses. As I read UPA memories, they appreciated Maxims for precision and continuous long range firing, but because of their weight, these MGs mostly used for defense and for machine-gunners training. Usual MGs for riy (squad) and chota (platoon)  were DP-27 also in some less number used Hungarian 31M Solothurn, also happened Polish wz.28 (Browning M1916) and Chech ZB vz.26. MG34 and since 1944 MG42 considered more like platoon/company level weapon, though they could be and in squads. Interesting that in UPA exactly DP27 was favorite LMG. German MGs, especially MG42 had a problem, because of high rate of fire their barrels need of periodic substitution, but in conditions of parts supply impossibility, Soviet LMG was more firm in use. 

If we will back to Maxim type MMG, UPA also used Polish wz.30 (Browning M1917) and even WWI rarity probably Hungarian or Chech Schwartzlose M.07

In whole UPA used weapons of all countries, which units operated in Western Ukraine, so their equipment was very motley even inside one platoon or even squad. There is almost wasn't a problem to get and store a weapon in 1939 when Polish army collapsed or in 1941 when Red Army withdrew and left many weapons. Much more problem was ammunition to it. UPA High Command even was forced to limit a number of SMGs in squads, because ammunition for it shot out faster, than rebels could replenish stocks. Only when UPA was disbanded in 1949 and Ukrainian resistanсe crossed to small groups guerilla, almost all fighters in units got SMGs.

 

[DMS]

On 6/4/2020 at 5:26 PM, Haiduk said:

German MGs, especially MG42 had a problem, because of high rate of fire their barrels need of periodic substitution, but in conditions of parts supply impossibility, Soviet LMG was more firm in use. 

MG was heavier, DP had heavy disks instead of belts, in summary weight was nearly equal. But even regular army soldiers used to drop that DP disks. I guess partisans were carrying 2-3 in the best case.

On 6/4/2020 at 5:26 PM, Haiduk said:

Much more problem was ammunition to it.

Soviet partisans remade extractors of DP and Mosins to used German ammo. (It's interesting that 7.92 bullets passed good through 7,62 barrels)  I think any irregulars did some sort of modification or reloaded ammo. Probably the hugest storages of ammo were German, with their 1200-1400 rounds for every mg.

On 6/4/2020 at 5:26 PM, Haiduk said:

Only when UPA was disbanded in 1949 and Ukrainian resistanсe crossed to small groups guerilla, almost all fighters in units got SMGs.

I think that theese SMGs were rather PDW than combat weapons. For self defense.

[Haiduk]

41 minutes ago, DMS said:

It's interesting that 7.92 bullets passed good through 7,62 barrels

I read UPA fighters had many SVT rifles, gathered in 1941, but had short of appropriate ammo. They used old WWI bullets for Mosin rifle, stored since 20th years, but this quickly weared the barrel. So, I think passing 7,92 through the 7,62 barrel weared it much more. And this weapon modification possibly had a sense in first wave of Red partisan movement in 1941, when detachments, established by local Party and NKVD chiefs could suffer problems with ammunition. Most of these groups, especially in Western Ukraine, Baltic and partailly Belarus were eliminated by Axis forces. But when the second wave started, partisans got centralized command, established big units and actually turned out in "army behind the emeny lines" - they got enough weapon and ammunition, big detachments had good supply by air and this "hand-made" tricks with weapon were no longer needed. In most cases popular image "partisan with trophy MP-40" is cinema stereotype. Their main weapon was Soviet, foreign weapon used like secondary, except maybe some small detachments in deep rear. 

Quote

I think that theese SMGs were rather PDW than combat weapons. For self defense.

The tactic changed. It is a mistake to consider UPA only like partisan army. They initially planned a deployment in regular-type army from the partisan level, so in most cases stored captured vehicles, guns and even several airplanes - the weapon, useless for partisan actions. They tried to receive tactical field manuals about modern warfare. In 1944-46 UPA tried to fight like regular army - they operated like army structure and tried to use regular army tactic, adopted to own conditions. But since 1949 this was mostly classical guerilla, when main unit already was not a "sotnia" (company) but "boyivka" (big squad). They mostly used ambushes, night attacks, diversions, elimination of military, Party active and communist-followers. SMGs were most appropriate for such tasks. 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Haiduk

[DMS]

19 hours ago, Haiduk said:

I read UPA fighters had many SVT rifles, gathered in 1941, but had short of appropriate ammo. They used old WWI bullets for Mosin rifle, stored since 20th years, but this quickly weared the barrel. So, I think passing 7,92 through the 7,62 barrel weared it much more. And this weapon modification possibly had a sense in first wave of Red partisan movement in 1941, when detachments, established by local Party and NKVD chiefs could suffer problems with ammunition. Most of these groups, especially in Western Ukraine, Baltic and partailly Belarus were eliminated by Axis forces. But when the second wave started, partisans got centralized command, established big units and actually turned out in "army behind the emeny lines" - they got enough weapon and ammunition, big detachments had good supply by air and this "hand-made" tricks with weapon were no longer needed. In most cases popular image "partisan with trophy MP-40" is cinema stereotype. Their main weapon was Soviet, foreign weapon used like secondary, except maybe some small detachments in deep rear. 

But what's wrong with old bullets? Corrosion? Yes, 7,92 bullets (actually 8,2) through 7,62 barrel were not good, I guess that rifles became smoothbore after some time.  

Well, NKVD could support them with something, but small weapons ammo in big quantities was not transportable by air. They couldn't drop enough so that every partisan would get at least 50 rounds to his rifle every month. That's why this extractor modifications were recommended officially, by instruktions. They also had to modify case, so Mauser round would lay in x54 chamber without resting by rim.

There were enough abandoned Soviet weapons, dropped in 1941. So yes, they didn't need to attack Germans for weapons. 

[LongLeftFlank]

On 6/4/2020 at 3:31 PM, Aragorn2002 said:

A lot of these so-called 'partisans' were little more than gangs of heavy criminals who terrorized the local population and cut up every German or other opponent they could lay their hands on.

Par for the course in irregular warfare, right up to the present day! And frankly, it's the norm for most regular armies as well. Kelly's Heroes and Major Minderbinder aren't entirely fictional.

Edited June 18, 2020 by LongLeftFlank

[Erwin]

13 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

...so-called 'partisans' were little more than gangs of heavy criminals who terrorized the local population and cut up every... other opponent 

Of course they would not have existed had the Germans not acted in an even worse manner towards conquered civilians (and POW's) to start with.

 

[LongLeftFlank]

9 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Of course they would not have existed had the Germans not acted in an even worse manner towards conquered civilians (and POW's) to start with.

 

Erich Koch et al. slapping the bread and salt out of villagers' hands didn't help, certainly. But once Soviet authority was removed, all kinds of local warlords and opportunists were going to pop up to fill the vacuum, no matter how enlightened the Germans chose to be.  The Reichskommissars had their orders to squeeze the Ostland dry, and were too racist and ignorant to understand that they needed to cut deals with a subset of these folks and play them off against each other, instead of treating them like dimwitted cattle (stűcke). But Nazis gonna Nazi....

[Aragorn2002]

20 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Erich Koch et al. slapping the bread and salt out of villagers' hands didn't help, certainly. But once Soviet authority was removed, all kinds of local warlords and opportunists were going to pop up to fill the vacuum, no matter how enlightened the Germans chose to be.  The Reichskommissars had their orders to squeeze the Ostland dry, and were too racist and ignorant to understand that they needed to cut deals with a subset of these folks and play them off against each other, instead of treating them like dimwitted cattle (stűcke). But Nazis gonna Nazi....

Yep. And don't forget the Soviet partisans were formed before and prepared for the German invasion in order to terrorize the population and prevent them to work with the Germans. Stalin didn't trust his own people and with good reason.The Germans made it even easier for him by treating the Russians the way they did. Chosing between Hitler and Stalin, between the devil and the deep blue sea...

Edited June 18, 2020 by Aragorn2002

[Erwin]

"Bloodlands" does an xnt job describing all those factors and the often insane-sounding rationalizations made to justify the mass-killings and ethnic cleansing actions by both Soviets and Germans.  Also, while nowadays it's politically correct to call the WW2 Germans "Nazis" as if the National Socialists were a separate entity and not supported by the majority of the German population, "Bloodlands" provides the evidence that the regular Wehrmacht troops were up to their necks in atrocities from the invasion of Poland onwards.

[Aragorn2002]

51 minutes ago, Erwin said:

"Bloodlands" does an xnt job describing all those factors and the often insane-sounding rationalizations made to justify the mass-killings and ethnic cleansing actions by both Soviets and Germans.  Also, while nowadays it's politically correct to call the WW2 Germans "Nazis" as if the National Socialists were a separate entity and not supported by the majority of the German population, "Bloodlands" provides the evidence that the regular Wehrmacht troops were up to their necks in atrocities from the invasion of Poland onwards.

Well, a lot can be said about attrocities in wartime, but to my experience discussions like this should better be avoided on this forum. Let's leave this subject to rest.

Edited June 18, 2020 by Aragorn2002

[Erwin]

18 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

...discussions like this...

Am simply quoting the data and supporting research stated in the book in case others are interested in reading about those events.  That is not a discussion.  If anyone has data and documents that contradict the facts and supporting research outlined in the book and posted them, then yes, that could certainly initiate a discussion.  

Regardless, none of the above should stop one from enjoying games like CM about the era and surrounding events any more than one would not want to play a game about Attila the Hun.  It is important however to remind folks of the realities of the historical events and resist attempts to rewrite history.

[Aragorn2002]

49 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Am simply quoting the data and supporting research stated in the book in case others are interested in reading about those events.  That is not a discussion.  If anyone has data and documents that contradict the facts and supporting research outlined in the book and posted them, then yes, that could certainly initiate a discussion.  

Regardless, none of the above should stop one from enjoying games like CM about the era and surrounding events any more than one would not want to play a game about Attila the Hun.  It is important however to remind folks of the realities of the historical events and resist attempts to rewrite history.

Fair enough, Erwin.

[Grisha]

Erwin,

Have you read 'Soviet Partisan Movement 1941-1944' by Leonid Grenkevich? Lots of good information in that book but little on the conflicts between the nationalist and communist partisan factions. Thanks for pointing that out. Vatutin had been killed by Ukrainian Nationalist partisans while on military operations in 1944.

[Grisha]

On 6/5/2020 at 12:25 PM, Haiduk said:

But when the second wave started, partisans got centralized command, established big units and actually turned out in "army behind the emeny lines" - they got enough weapon and ammunition, big detachments had good supply by air and this "hand-made" tricks with weapon were no longer needed.

NKVD had a lot to do with this development, working in hand with Red Army and coordinating with Soviet operations. That was about 1943 roughly. There were airfields in partisan-held territory in occupied USSR with regular flights by U-2 for ferrying officers/agents/wounded.