Do shared contact markers lead to faster spotting times?

[domfluff]

Units in C2 (or just nearby) can share information in the form of spotting markers.

There's been an assumption that being given a spotting marker for a unit that you haven't seen yet (e.g, a scout unit passing the location of an enemy AT gun to a friendly tank), allows you to spot that unit faster.

Does it? How much?

I've tried setting up some tests for this, but haven't gotten very far in proving this so far, and I'd be interested in some theories for how best to go about testing this.

Edited May 1, 2019 by domfluff

[Glubokii Boy]

hello...

I don't know if you know about this thread...If not it might provide you with some intresting reading...

Hopefully this will be atleast somewhat related to your questions...

 

[domfluff]

Ah yes, thank you - the work that MOS:96B2P did on that is invaluable, but it only concerns how the information is shared, and not the consequence of that.

Now, it's "reasonable" to assume that the shared contact information helps in subsequent spotting, but there are lots of other counter-intuitive mechanics in CM (like leadership not spreading to subordinates, or fatigue not affecting accuracy), so it would be good to have something vaguely quantifiable as to whether this is actually the result, and how much it helps.

To quote the above thread: The AI can't shoot at tentative contacts but it can generally acquire a confirmed contact quicker if it has a tentative contact to begin with.  (This is my opinion from playing the game I have not experimented with it.) 

Edited May 1, 2019 by domfluff

[Sgt.Squarehead]

While I don't know if the markers cause a modifier of themselves, the fact that the unit now knows which direction to look and can be given a face command or target arc, surely increases the odds (intervening hills/forests etc. excepted). 

[domfluff]

Now, I think I have observed armour and infantry facing towards known spotting markers by themselves. If that's accurate, then that's quite right - it'll speed up spotting and also reaction times when shot (since shooting is faster then turning + shooting).

[Sgt.Squarehead]

I think that's due to them catching a glimpse of the unit themselves.

[Falaise]

p 25 of the SF2 screenshot
Aurelius writes:

" I bailed my Coy HQ tank and used the crew to observe enemy movement (harder to spot a man that lies in prone position, than it is to spot a T62 turret). I parked one of the Plt HQ tanks near my company commander, who then shared his spots with platoon commander. The information got passed through the platoon network. Next step was choosing hull down positions. With contacts already passed through platoon network, the job was already half done. Having my tanks unbuttoned/opened up and with previous knowledge of enemy positions and movements, has made my tanks spot M1's almost instantly. I was lucky to catch one platoon on the move. Movement reduced their spotting ability, which I fully used to my advantage. The second platoon of M1's was destroyed by combining efforts of my Company commander observing, 9M14 Malyutka's blinding the M1's and T62's finishing the jobs with flanking shots. "

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

T-62s beating the mighty Abrams in a spotting match (albeit human vs. AI) seems like pretty conclusive proof to me! 

[Aurelius]

To elaborate further:

Some years ago, inspired by that C2 & Information sharing post, I did some tests in Battle for Normandy and it mainly concerns vehicle spotting . I made a small map in editor, put some German forces in a forest (Pak40 and some MG's and also one infantry squad), put an American scout team in another forest to observe the Germans. One Sherman tank was placed on the map and I made sure that there was no way for it to observe the Germans or the scout team. I also made sure that there was no radio contact between the tank and the scouts.

With that set up I tested the spotting times and it was pretty conclusive. When the scout spotted German positions, I ran him to the tank, waited until the info was passed (waited a full turn). Then I moved the tank forward so it can have LoS on the forest occupied by Germans. When they were unbuttoned/opened up, they spotted almost instantly (less than 2 seconds). When they were buttoned up, they spotted in less than 5 seconds.

I also did some tests with no info sharing, unbuttoned came to about 10 seconds for the spot and I was under the impression that the crew tac-ai prioritized spotting AT positions. Buttoned up was above 10 seconds and I didn't really test it that much, cause I felt like I was just asking for someone to come and burn my tank.

So this was my conclusion:

Unbuttoned with previous knowledge>buttoned with previous knowledge>unbuttoned with no previous knowledge>buttoned with no previous knowledge.

So guys, make sure your AFV's have the information, unless you want them to end up like 131st Separate Motor Rifle Brigade in Grozny.

[domfluff]

That's excellent, thank you.

That was my assumption, but it's good to see it confirmed. I think I'll run some AFV tests to convince myself.

[Falaise]

It's awesome
it makes me even more fond of this game
it opens up a lot of tactical possibility
I already told you in sf2 screeenshot I say it again: Thanks Aurélius

[Aurelius]

@Falaise You're welcome.

[Josey Wales]

@Aurelius I had been mulling over doing a video which tackles this topic. My findings in tests I have run on my own small map agree with yours. This has changed my play style in that provided I have enough time I will always try and get contact information to my tank crews as it greatly increases their chances of getting that crucial first round hit.

Sometimes I have found this difficult to do and I've had an infantry unit with the contact information next to my unbuttoned tank but it has not been passed on. I have gotten around this by dismounting the crew and then re-crewing the tank which seems a bit rubbish to me. I wonder if it has something to do with the engine noise and by getting the tank to 'Hide' the info is passed on quicker?! 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

8 hours ago, Aurelius said:

So guys, make sure your AFV's have the information, unless you want them to end up like 131st Separate Motor Rifle Brigade in Grozny.

Putting the actual explosives into your ERA helps too of course! 

But yeah, information is king. 

[Aurelius]

16 minutes ago, Josey Wales said:

Sometimes I have found this difficult to do and I've had an infantry unit with the contact information next to my unbuttoned tank but it has not been passed on. I have gotten around this by dismounting the crew and then re-crewing the tank which seems a bit rubbish to me. I wonder if it has something to do with the engine noise and by getting the tank to 'Hide' the info is passed on quicker?! 

Could be organisational, maybe you are going through so many levels horizontally, vertically and diagonally of the chain of command that it simply doesn't work. Sometimes highest HQ's of different formations on map "wont speak" to each other.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

1 minute ago, Aurelius said:

Sometimes highest HQ's of different formations on map "wont speak" to each other.

This is something I need to check on.....I've been building some unusual units, attempting to maintain C2 amongst disparate formations by co-locating HQs, hope they're all on speaking terms (Could language even be an issue I wonder, is the game that detailed?). 

[MeatEtr]

Shhhhh... keep this on the DL... don't want my opponents to know!

[Sulomon]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:18 PM, MeatEtr said:

Shhhhh... keep this on the DL... don't want my opponents to know!

If your opponent didn't already know this you should be fine regardless 

Edited May 9, 2019 by Sulomon

[George MC]

Maintaining C and C and information sharing is the real game. The work that @MOS:96B2P did have radically altered the ways I fight my command and highlights the importance and relevance of HQ units and information sharing.

[domfluff]

True, and combining that with Josey Wale's work on how the soft factors and leadership works is pretty crucial I think.

I've been running quite a few tests on symmetric squads in and out of C2, and the effect on recovering suppression is really reliable - they'll happily suppress each other at a similar rate to begin with, but the squad in C2 will recover first, and therefore end up winning the firefight over the course of a few turns.