rocketman Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Recently saw this youtube clip about the pros and cons of having muzzle brakes on big guns: Are muzzle brakes modelled in CM games? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 Thats very interesting. If I recall correctly CM does model the bad accuracy of Firefly APDS ammo, but I did not know the muzzle brak was the reason (or part of the reason). I dont think smoke is moddeled differently for tanks with muzzle breaks though.. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted June 5, 2017 Share Posted June 5, 2017 I haven't seen any discussion about this internally, but frankly a lot of what goes on under the hood remains opaque. So much stuff on a 'need-to-know' basis. My only example of possible muzzle brake effects us the gawd-awful amount of dust an 88 Flak kicks up when firing on dry terrain in the game. But so does the 100mm MT12 AT gun in CMBS. And that comes with a muzzle brake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted June 5, 2017 Author Share Posted June 5, 2017 I would like to know if the concussive effect on nearby infantry from shots with muzzle brake guns is modelled or not. I found it interesting that tanks designed mainly for infantry support usually didn't have muzzle brakes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 4 hours ago, rocketman said: I found it interesting that tanks designed mainly for infantry support usually didn't have muzzle brakes. Could that be because they might use a lower velocity gun thus not needing the brake? I had never thought about this before, so I wondered. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Michael Emrys said: Could that be because they might use a lower velocity gun thus not needing the brake? I had never thought about this before, so I wondered. Michael As I understood it the muzzle brake channels not only smoke to the side, but the shock wave as well - so if infantry close to the barrel will be effectively knocked out. Edited June 6, 2017 by rocketman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 20 hours ago, rocketman said: I found it interesting that tanks designed mainly for infantry support usually didn't have muzzle brakes. Tank destroyers tended not to have muzzle brakes as they kick up a much bigger cloud of dust, revealing the vehicles position, whether this would be a consideration here I honestly don't know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 17 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: Tank destroyers tended not to have muzzle brakes as they kick up a much bigger cloud of dust, revealing the vehicles position, whether this would be a consideration here I honestly don't know. But according to the clip one reason behind muzzle brakes is to spread the smoke so that the firing location is harder to spot. I guess there are several considerations for a design. In wet conditions or in urban areas, kicking up dirt would be less of a concern. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 5 hours ago, rocketman said: As I understood it the muzzle brake channels not only smoke to the side, but the shock wave as well - so if infantry close to the barrel will be effectively knocked out. That sounds too sophisticated to me. I understand, the main purpose of muzzle brakes is to reduce the recoil. I don't know, if this is modelled, but it sounds very "Tank internal" to me any ways. A second effect is to deflect the flash and smoke, which improves spotting, obviously. Later tanks were increasingly designed for long range combat and high accuracy. That results in high barrel pressure and large recoil (the energy throwing out the round has to be absorbed somehow). Muzzle brakes "deflect" some of the energy, thus other components of the gun and tank can be designed smaller. Helping to save weight, space, etc. Guns for infantry support were normally short barrelled, because they needed less accuracy and a lower muzzle velocity (due to the short firing range). Both results in a lower pressure build-up in the barrel. Therefore the recoil was less of an issue and hence no muzzle brake installed 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 Well, the only way to reduce the large recoil is to divert shock from the blast anyway but forward, thus to the sides (and down?). That shock effect is significant when it comes to the concussive effect. In the clip he retells the story of a StuG (?) gunner on the east front who was surrendered by Soviet troops. He went in reverse and fired forward, not because there were any targets there but to knock out infantry with the shock of the blast from the gun/muzzle brake. Apperently very effective though the story doesn't tell how close the infantry was. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 The role of a muzzle brake is simple: it works as a braking device to slow/ease the recoil of the weapon. "Brake", not "break". The way they work is to divert some proportion of the gasses to the rear. (Note: the German "acorn" muzzle brake was considered a high-tech secret and Germans erased their existence from pictures for some time.) (Think of the barrel as a rocket engine. Once the projectile clears the muzzle, the large volume of high-pressure gas creates a thrust pushing the barrel back. If you can vent some of that gas to the sides, you remove the "bad" thrust represented by that portion of the gas thus diverted. If you can bend the gas so some of it tries to "pull" the barrel forward, by venting the gas to the rear by some angle, you get a dual benefit of removing some "bad" thrust, AND adding some "good" thrust to counteract it.) Most weapons are limited by the recoil forces that the weapon mount can withstand. Small turret rings are particularly bad for this. Muzzle brakes allow a much more energetic weapon in a smaller/lighter mount. Now, in order to get some of the gasses to the rear (or divert some from going straight out), those gasses have to go SOMEWHERE. You need to vent them in a balanced manner, or you'll bend your barrel. If you vent it up and down, you'll get a dust storm, debris, and fire all in front of the weapon. So, you vent the gas to both sides. Get out to a gun range with some high-power rifles. Stand to the side of a non-muzzle-brake rifle being fired. Then do the same with one with a muzzle brake. The impact and shock effect you feel is quite distinct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, c3k said: Now, in order to get some of the gasses to the rear (or divert some from going straight out), those gasses have to go SOMEWHERE. You need to vent them in a balanced manner, or you'll bend your barrel. If you vent it up and down, you'll get a dust storm, debris, and fire all in front of the weapon. So, you vent the gas to both sides. Get out to a gun range with some high-power rifles. Stand to the side of a non-muzzle-brake rifle being fired. Then do the same with one with a muzzle brake. The impact and shock effect you feel is quite distinct. Everything happens for a reason. And that reason is usually physics. You can get Tshirts too: https://teespring.com/phys1csreason#pid=2&cid=576&sid=front Edited June 6, 2017 by IanL oops grammar 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted June 6, 2017 Author Share Posted June 6, 2017 34 minutes ago, IanL said: Everything happen for a reason. And that reason is usually physics. You can get Tshirts too: https://teespring.com/phys1csreason#pid=2&cid=576&sid=front I thought the reason why everything happens was Murphy's Law 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 Really what Murphy is doing is assuring you that physics *is* going to kick your ass when you make your grand plans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StieliAlpha Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 9 minutes ago, rocketman said: I thought the reason why everything happens was Murphy's Law Nooooo, Murphy's law only proves by exception, that physics are right. ? I like C3k's text. Basically what I wanted to say, but my fingers got sore... I guess the short answer to your OP is: - Is muzzle effect in the game? We don't know. - Would it have an effect on close combat? Most likely. - Were muzzle brakes designed for the "close combat" effect? Most certainly not. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtsjc1 Posted June 6, 2017 Share Posted June 6, 2017 The same reason a muzzle brake is sometimes put on a large caliber rifle such as .50 BMG or a .338 Lapua. It directs the gasses to the side instead of the front reducing recoil. C3K explained it well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 I recall seeing films of "modern" tanks firing that were made in the early 1950s, and the camera—which was probably set up 20-30 meters off the side jumped around really a lot. So the muzzle blast from a 90mm cannon was quite substantial, and I doubt that the blast of a late war ~75mm would have been negligible. Bottom line: if you are on foot anywhere in the vicinity of a firing tank, you want to be well off to the side and if possible a little to the back. You don't want to be in front unless you are way in front. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Backer Posted June 7, 2017 Share Posted June 7, 2017 17 hours ago, IanL said: Everything happens for a reason. And that reason is usually physics. You can get Tshirts too: https://teespring.com/phys1csreason#pid=2&cid=576&sid=front that's hilarious! Best Tee I've seen in a long while! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fizou Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 An older discussion about the Firefly, 17 pounders, APDS and accuracy. Seems that the inaccuracy of APDS ammo is modeled in CM as mentioned earlier, but to what extent has it to do with the munition and to what extent the muzzle brakes on the 17 pounders? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt.Squarehead Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 I believe a lot of the issue is down to the sabot falling away, I seem to remember reading the term 'Tip-Off' in relationship to this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted June 12, 2017 Share Posted June 12, 2017 ^^^ Yep. Sabot peeling has to be very symmetrical. This was one of the earlier attempts, under some crucial time pressure. Modern ones have benefited from decades of development. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocketman Posted June 12, 2017 Author Share Posted June 12, 2017 2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said: I believe a lot of the issue is down to the sabot falling away, I seem to remember reading the term 'Tip-Off' in relationship to this. Yes, that is what is mentioned in the clip I posted and adding to that, the reason why most modern MBTs don't have muzzle brakes is that there is a lot of fancy munitions with "fins" and stuff that get tangled in the muzzle brake. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithikial_AU Posted June 26, 2017 Share Posted June 26, 2017 On 07/06/2017 at 4:36 AM, IanL said: Everything happens for a reason. And that reason is usually physics. You can get Tshirts too: https://teespring.com/phys1csreason#pid=2&cid=576&sid=front If you want a Physics TShirt. (Granted from another game but still) https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.11706212.5430/ra,unisex_tshirt,x2950,fafafa:ca443f4786,front-c,648,590,750,1000-bg,f8f8f8.lite-1.jpg 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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