Getting frustrated with LOS and spotting

[rooibos]

Playing through the second mission of the Shield of Kiev.

 

Put my infantry in the woods on the left flank looking towards the large buildings. Have an MG team moving in to provide cover, find a good spot with good LOS on the buildings. Have him set up his gun, and now the LOS is gone. I had another rifle team right beside them (same elevation, no trees in the way) who could see perfectly.

 

I really can't figure out how to set infantry up in the grass. They never seem to see anything. Same goes for trees. A single tree seems to block an entire team's LOS despite the fact that that with the camera I can see perfectly that two storey building I wish to light up.

Edited October 21, 2016 by rooibos

[hattori]

Quick question (sorry if this is ridiculous) ... are you checking line of sight ahead of time by putting a movement waypoint on where you want to go, and then check LOS from that waypoint with target commands, or are you zooming down to ground level to see if there is LOS?

Edited October 21, 2016 by hattori

[Glubokii Boy]

1 hour ago, rooibos said:

 

 

I really can't figure out how to set infantry up in the grass. They never seem to see anything. Same goes for trees. A single tree seems to block an entire team's LOS despite the fact that that with the camera I can see perfectly that two storey building I wish to light up.

I don't know if i this is the reason for your excact problem but IIRC one of the biggest limitations with the current game-engine is that your targeting unit needs LOS to the ground level

of any actionsquare (part of the map) you wish to target with area-fire.

It does not matter if you have perfect LOS to the second, third and fourth floor of a building... if you cant se the bottom floor you will not be able to fire at the building at any level.

The exception to this is if you are targeting a specific enemy unit in that building then you can do so without having LOS to the bottom floor but simply areafire on the building will not work.

 

 

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, rooibos said:

<Snip>  I really can't figure out how to set infantry up in the grass. They never seem to see anything. Same goes for trees. A single tree seems to block an entire team's LOS despite the fact that that with the camera I can see perfectly that two storey building I wish to light up.

How the initial spot check was made might be part of the problem.  If the target/LOS tool for an infantry team is initially used in one stance (Upright) but when the unit gets to the location and deploys in a different stance (prone) the LOS may be different.  

 

[MOS:96B2P]

35 minutes ago, RepsolCBR said:

I don't know if i this is the reason for your excact problem but IIRC one of the biggest limitations with the current game-engine is that your targeting unit needs LOS to the ground level of any action square (part of the map) you wish to target with area-fire.

It does not matter if you have perfect LOS to the second, third and fourth floor of a building... if you cant se the bottom floor you will not be able to fire at the building at any level.

The exception to this is if you are targeting a specific enemy unit in that building then you can do so without having LOS to the bottom floor but simply areafire on the building will not work.  

I remember this discussion in general but can't remember all the specific details now.  I know there was a problem with wheat fields that blocked line of site to a ground level action square so that action square (and things in it) could not be targeted.  I just did a quick test in CMBS where a three story building had a tall wall around it blocking the ground level action square.  A scout team was able to area fire into the second and third level no problem.  

I see my friend @RepsolCBR also put IIRC in his statement above.  If anybody can refresh our memories with the details of this: not being able to target an action square and when and how it applies and if it may be related to what @rooibos is experiencing please refresh away.     

[A Canadian Cat]

The problem of targeting buildings that look like you should be able to hit has had a lot of discussion over the years. The issue of needing visibility of the ground to target upper floors is not quite as bad as it was.  I think there are still times that from the camera it looks like you should be able to target the second floor but you cannot.  But a third and fourth story can be targeted.  In other words the issue is now a corner case instead of every case.  But being able to area target buildings is an issue for sure.  Steve and Charles have looked at it and experimented with some ideas but none could be made to work given the constraints of the game. I think this is covered by Steve somewhere in the threads below (I know I read it from him at one point but I am unsure if it is in these threads I had bookmarked):

Sadly my opening technique no longer works - but that's a good thing actually it exposed an opportunity to do really bad things that broke the game. So while I wish I could do this in an urban environment it is a good thing that the feature was removed.  Other people share other tips though.

 

[A Canadian Cat]

The problem of having guys loose sight of something they already spotted or being unable to area target something that it looked like they could because they lay down in tall grass is real too.  Damned annoying at times.  That is a issue.  The problem is the target tool uses a units current stance to perform the LOS test. Unexpected things happen when you do the test with kneeling troops and when they get to the end they lay down.  Or if you want to see what troops laying down in the open would see from the wall you get no LOS to anything because it does the test as if they were laying down behind the wall.  Doh!

This also gets annoying when hunting troops spot something and they lay down and loose sight of it (like your Javelin teams in Opportunity Knocks). If you keep getting them to move or hunt forward they usually get themselves sorted and acquire the target before hitting the dirt.

[rooibos]

3 hours ago, hattori said:

Quick question (sorry if this is ridiculous) ... are you checking line of sight ahead of time by putting a movement waypoint on where you want to go, and then check LOS from that waypoint with target commands, or are you zooming down to ground level to see if there is LOS?

Yeah, I make sure to check where I'm moving first- the main issue was specifically with an MG team who had LOS while "weapon not deployed" but not once the weapon was deployed- they hadn't moved from their action square afaik.

 

The second issue is more of a general issue with finding LOS in grassy or wooded areas in general. I tend to avoid them outright as I find it extremely finnicky trying to guess at what areas have LOS despite what the camera shows

 

Thanks for the info guys, it seems like the problem is a combination of the aforementioned issues.

 

1) Posture change from standing/not deployed to prone/deployed. Which is really kinda annoying.

 

2) Ground level LOS required for all buildings regardless of height, this is a terrible bug tbh, I'd always sorta felt like this was the case, but it's good to know that it's more or less confirmed. C'mon BF,  get on this.

 

 

So, any tips or tricks people use to make infantry usage easier in "difficult" terrain? Especially in regards to smaller teams or teams that need to be "deployed" or prone?

Edited October 21, 2016 by rooibos

[Glubokii Boy]

Just now, rooibos said:

 

 

2) Ground level LOS required for all buildings regardless of height, this is a terrible bug tbh, I'd always sorta felt like this was the case, but it's good to know that it's more or less confirmed. C'mon BF,  get on this.

 

 

 

I think that BF is sort of ' on it '...

after MOS:96 post ... i also did some quick testing and imo it has been greately improved to how i remembered it to be...

I guess IanL is right. They have fixed it to a degree atleast...hopefully more work will be done...

[MOS:96B2P]

Thanks for those links @IanL.  Some great info and I have only gotten part way through them.  To include:  There are 5 ground heights in the game in terms of LOS, LOF, and Spotting: Prone, Kneeling, Standing/Small Vehicle, Tall Vehicle, Very Tall Vehicle.  Also from BFC, the reason we can't fire through smoke.  I always thought it was a programming limitation.  I now have my own BFC bookmarks folder .     

[Vanir Ausf B]

Also, line of sight for heavy weapons teams is checked from the perspective of the gunner.

[Kinophile]

7 hours ago, RepsolCBR said:

One of the biggest limitations with the current game-engine is that your targeting unit needs LOS to the ground level of any actionsquare (part of the map) you wish to target with area-fire.

It does not matter if you have perfect LOS to the second, third and fourth floor of a building... if you cant se the bottom floor you will not be able to fire at the building at any level.

The exception to this is if you are targeting a specific enemy unit in that building then you can do so without having LOS to the bottom floor but simply areafire on the building will not work.

 

 

Whaaaaaaaat 

This EXPLAINS SO %&$@#)=&@$ING MUCH!

ARGGGHHH! 

 

Edited October 21, 2016 by kinophile

[Michael Emrys]

3 hours ago, kinophile said:

Whaaaaaaaat 

This EXPLAINS SO %&$@#)=&@$ING MUCH!

ARGGGHHH! 

You just hearing about this? It was discussed at some considerable length earlier in the year. ISTR it was in one of the WW II fora.

Michael

[Kinophile]

I never read those. Don't own any WW2. Just BS. 

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, kinophile said:

I never read those. Don't own any WW2. Just BS. 

I thought that might be the case, which is why I mentioned it. If somebody recalls the thread and forum in which it appeared, perhaps they would be kind enough to post a link.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

5 hours ago, Michael Emrys said:

I thought that might be the case, which is why I mentioned it. If somebody recalls the thread and forum in which it appeared, perhaps they would be kind enough to post a link.

Isn't it one of the threads I linked to above?

[Michael Emrys]

11 hours ago, IanL said:

Isn't it one of the threads I linked to above?

Probably. I didn't have the time to go through them, but I did figure that you were the most likely candidate to have it together.

Michael

[A Canadian Cat]

Hee thanks man