T-72B3 has overpowered optics ingame (IRL commanders optics is terrible)

[Oleg]

In this article full of real life experience of tanker using T-72B3

https://topwar.ru/35631-t-72b3chto-eto-za-zver-chast-1.html

https://topwar.ru/35591-t-72b3chto-eto-za-zver-chast-2.html

You can find that yes, it have good gunners sight with thermal view. But its only gunners sight, so its limited to narrow field of view in direction main gun is pointed to.

And Commanders sight is crappy old soviet TKN-3MK which even does not have optic stabilization, and can see only up to 500m. Its basically just simple periscope, and commander must turn it around with force of his own hands - its not even motorized. Its worst sight ever

Compare it to commanders sight PNK-4SR on T-64BM Bulat. PNK-4SR has optical stabilization, and can see up to 1100m.

So my complain is. When i tested T-72B3 against infantry, this tank spotted infantry which was sitting quiet in distant building from side of the tank, and main gun was not pointed in the direction of that infantry, so fancy thermal imagine gunners sight was not involved. That infantry was spotted by the commander of T-72B3 who was sitting with closed hatch. But commander of this tank, considering how terrible commander optics it have IRL, should be almost blind ingame, and only real spotting capability tank should have only in direction of main gun.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Oleg

[VladimirTarasov]

TKN-3 does not make you blind, you can spot well out to some areas depending on the terrain. However at night, the commander is almost good as blind using the TKN-3. However I've noticed that armored vehicles especially on the US side spot infantry pretty good even from the sides or rear. When in reality a tank is to focused in scanning what's in front. So there could be some tweaks to spotting you're right. But the TKN-3MK is not too bad, it is poorish compared to todays standards though. I myself am confused as to why the T-72B3 has the ancient TKN-3MK... Here's to hoping they get T-72B3Ms into service by the end of the year.

Edited August 10, 2016 by VladimirTarasov

[Oleg]

On 10.08.2016 at 1:29 PM, VladimirTarasov said:

TKN-3 does not make you blind, you can spot well out to some areas depending on the terrain.

It does. TKN-3 does not have optical stabilization, so on the move commander cant see anything at all with this sight. Its reflected in article https://topwar.ru/35631-t-72b3chto-eto-za-zver-chast-1.html

Quote

В принципе — это тоже нормально. Веселье начинается при движении танка. Если не будете делать из своего тела стабилизатор данному прибору, то хрен вы что в него увидите.

 

In stationary position, yes he can see something, if it is very close to tank tank, in open field, in clear weather, in bright day.. basically he will see more just with naked eye when he unbuttoned from the hatch. Its also reflected in article https://topwar.ru/35631-t-72b3chto-eto-za-zver-chast-1.html

 

Ведь главная работа командира танка заключается в выполнении приказа командира взвода. Он указывает механику, куда и КАК двигаться. Он ищет и находит цели для наводчика. Как ему это сделать?

Ночью — никак. Днем — вылезать из люка и осматриваться… Вот так вот, по-современному, и сделали в данной версии модернизации, все таки XXI век на дворе…

Edited August 11, 2016 by Oleg

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Oh I could really tear into this one, but I'll just simply say the tankers who only focus on their front are bad, in a Russian tank, or some combination of the two.  

[antaress73]

That"s true for earlier russian and western tanks . T-90 commander's sight is way better and of course then you have the panoramic sights on the T-90AM and T-72B4. Focusing only on the front is bad indeed. Unbutton if you dont have the optics to have 360 degrees awareness.

[VladimirTarasov]

11 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Oh I could really tear into this one, but I'll just simply say the tankers who only focus on their front are bad, in a Russian tank, or some combination of the two.  

Go ahead tear me into pieces I wasn't a tankist like you, I wouldn't know. Would you mind telling how you tank guys work, when spotting/scanning?

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

Basically imagine when you're moving as a rifle squad/section/whatever.  You and all your little crunchy buddies had directions you were supposed to watch, so that in effect your element had "eyes" facing every direction.

Same deal with a tank unit.  Just as much as your unit didn't move with every rifle facing forward, so too do tanks divide up the battlespace into areas of responsibility.  Then within that dynamic there's a further division among the crew.  The better and more "eyes" the tank has, the better it is able to cover its "primary" arcs, and also still keep eyes on other places.

So in that regard with the next generation thermals, the M1A2 has three effective sets of eyes per tank (driver actually has a pretty good view when not hull down with the DVE especially, then obviously gunner and TC), while the T-72B3 really only has one effective set of eyes (as the T-72 has a not at all very good view for the driver, a bad optic for the commander, and an okay one for the gunner).

This folds out into the "eyes front" effect, in that the three tank T-72 platoon has only three sets of eyes covering everything it has to see.  On a similar US tank platoon there's twelve, which accounts for much better situational awareness, even before you get into the differences between the capabilities of the sensors themselves.

[antaress73]

They could use the vee formation on offense  with the Middle tank having the turret facing forward and the two side ones facing left and right to cover the flanks . Better than nothing . Commanders should be unbuttonned unless clear and present danger is present. Against a modern opponent,  the T-72B3 is more of a mobile decently  armored anti tank gun used in defense , ambush style (narrow firing arcs with limited exposure with thermal signature reducing camouflage)  than anything else. It's obsolete as an offensive weapon against any modern western style force. Ukraine is not modern.

Adding relikt and a commander's panoramic sight with good thermals  like they plan (planned ?) to do with the B3M would greatly increase the tank's usefulness and combat worthiness in a modern high intensity war setting. 

Edited August 13, 2016 by antaress73

[VladimirTarasov]

9 hours ago, panzersaurkrautwerfer said:

Basically imagine when you're moving as a rifle squad/section/whatever.  You and all your little crunchy buddies had directions you were supposed to watch, so that in effect your element had "eyes" facing every direction.

Same deal with a tank unit.  Just as much as your unit didn't move with every rifle facing forward, so too do tanks divide up the battlespace into areas of responsibility.  Then within that dynamic there's a further division among the crew.  The better and more "eyes" the tank has, the better it is able to cover its "primary" arcs, and also still keep eyes on other places.

So in that regard with the next generation thermals, the M1A2 has three effective sets of eyes per tank (driver actually has a pretty good view when not hull down with the DVE especially, then obviously gunner and TC), while the T-72B3 really only has one effective set of eyes (as the T-72 has a not at all very good view for the driver, a bad optic for the commander, and an okay one for the gunner).

This folds out into the "eyes front" effect, in that the three tank T-72 platoon has only three sets of eyes covering everything it has to see.  On a similar US tank platoon there's twelve, which accounts for much better situational awareness, even before you get into the differences between the capabilities of the sensors themselves.

I see, thanks for the information. Cool to hear it from a tanker such as yourself 

[Kinophile]

14 hours ago, antaress73 said:

  the T-72B3 is more of a mobile decently  armored anti tank gun used in defense , ambush style (narrow firing arcs with limited exposure with thermal signature reducing camouflage)  than anything else. It's obsolete as an offensive weapon against any modern western style force. Ukraine is not modern

This. 

Exactly my opinion of the T72 (and also T64+). 

Using them as offensive against US troops is borderline negligent. Stupid at least. 

Edited August 13, 2016 by kinophile

[antaress73]

I bail out crews and do a recon on foot to make sure Abrams are not facing me before moving when surprising them with small tactical moves. 

[MikeyD]

The biggest offense against a vehicle in-game is the Ukrainian T64 in my humble opinion. Sure, its an old vehicle but giving it the spotting ability of a buttoned BT fast tank in CMBB seems a bit harsh. Even if you unbutton the commander (only to get him shot by a sniper 5 minute later) he still can't spot anything.

[antaress73]

1 hour ago, MikeyD said:

The biggest offense against a vehicle in-game is the Ukrainian T64 in my humble opinion. Sure, its an old vehicle but giving it the spotting ability of a buttoned BT fast tank in CMBB seems a bit harsh. Even if you unbutton the commander (only to get him shot by a sniper 5 minute later) he still can't spot anything.

I'm sure that's a bug.. i mean common .. wwii tanks in CMFB spot better 

[Oleg]

15 hours ago, MikeyD said:

The biggest offense against a vehicle in-game is the Ukrainian T64 in my humble opinion. Sure, its an old vehicle but giving it the spotting ability of a buttoned BT fast tank in CMBB seems a bit harsh. Even if you unbutton the commander (only to get him shot by a sniper 5 minute later) he still can't spot anything.

 

Especially when IRL both "old" Т-64BV and "new" T-72B3 share the exact same commanders site - old soviet TKN-3.

[Oleg]

Also, ingame T-72B3 demonstrates "laser warning behavior"(popping smoke and reversing), when enemy aim it with laser. But its even ingame does not have "laser detection ability", not even saying about IRL.

[Vanir Ausf B]

16 hours ago, Oleg said:

Also, ingame T-72B3 demonstrates "laser warning behavior"(popping smoke and reversing), when enemy aim it with laser. But its even ingame does not have "laser detection ability", not even saying about IRL.

Are you referring to the version with.or without Arena? Any tank with an APS will have a LWR.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Vanir Ausf B

[John Kettler]

Oleg,

Believe they perhaps exhibit that behavior because what looks to me to be a LWR appears on the same mast which houses the wind sensor.  This much I can say for sure. At least part of what's on that mast looks just like the very first LWR I saw mounted on a T-55 equipped with the scary Klavdivo FCS in a SECRET level pic during the Cold War. Perhaps one of our Russian or Ukrainian colleague can supply some insights?

Regards,

John Kettler

 

 

[Oleg]

8 hours ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

Any tank with an APS will have a LSR.

That seems wrong. APS can detect incoming projectiles not incoming laser radiation.

[Vanir Ausf B]

You are correct. My mistake. I was thinking of Shtora, which does feature a LWR. Arena does not.

However, I cannot replicate the behavior you reported. I tested T-90A and T-72B3 with and without APS getting shot at by unspotted enemy tanks. The T-90s reacted immediately upon getting lased, but the T-72s did nothing at all unless they spotted the shooter.

[Vanir Ausf B]

BTW, with regards to the OP, the spotting ability of many vehicles will be getting tweaked to more closely match their optics in the next patch if I get my way. Of course, I frequently do not get my way.

[Oleg]

8 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

unless they spotted the shooter.

Ah, maybe thats it. T72 did not had "laser warning" message but did popped smoke and reversed. I thought this behavior has only tanks with laser detection, and its bug that T72s doing this without "laser warning" message. But if you saying tank crew may do this on their own if they spotted shooter, then yes its ok.

Edited August 15, 2016 by Oleg

[BTR]

1) TKN-3MK does not make you almost blind, unless visual spectrum is blocked. It is subpar to modern systems, but at most ranges that CMBS works at, 4.75x zoom should cut it in alright conditions from stationary especially. 

2) TKN-3MK is only one of six available observation instruments to a B3 commander when not unbuttoned. 

3) However substandard commander's optics are, it is still possible that he saw out to whatever place your infantry was hiding, because unless he is legally blind he has a chance to see. People get lucky and unlucky (read 4x misses from Khirz topic of mine).   

 

[Oleg]

22 minutes ago, BTR said:

TKN-3MK does not make you almost blind

 

T-64BV, which has same TKN-3, ingame almost blind

Edited August 15, 2016 by Oleg

[BTR]

31 minutes ago, Oleg said:

T-64BV, which has same TKN-3, ingame almost blind

Yeah, that's a problem with T-64BV isn't it? Besides T-64BV commander's hatch has objectively less vision block on it so perhaps that skews its optics rating even more. 

Edited August 15, 2016 by BTR

[Oleg]

2 minutes ago, BTR said:

Yeah, that's a problem with T-64BV isn't it?

 

I dont think so. I think any tank ingame with TKN-3 should really be almost blind, and thats while stationary, while on the move they must be completely and utterly blind(cause TKN-3 does not have optical stabilization). So for my look T-64BV is modeled correctly, its T-72B3 who has way more vision ingame than it deserves.