Proof BMP-2s do fire ATGMs

[Sublime]

Im gonna try to recreate rhe tests now. I dont know how to record vid on my comp but i assume noone has reason to believe id lie and ill keep saves. Im gonna just do a couple qbs in scen author mode with bmp2ms. See if they fire once again. And publish my saves. Because then the problem is why are some peoples weapons firing and others arent

 Sburke ive fought you in pbems. I may not be even close to the best cm player but you know im not a slouch pixeltruppen CO

 

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Ask IanL or Nidan1 how many times theyve fought my 2Ms with no kornets firing.

Those BMP's had missiles?  I had no idea

[Sublime]

And seriously how many times did we play pbems where i was Russians with 2Ms. ? At least 30 or 40. Seriously.

Nidan at least the same amount. Jammersix went against my kornets never saw them fired. I can keep naming opponents who are well known members of this community who i fought with at least 10 plus bmp2ms on dozens of occassions without a single launch  in fact in game my vehicle missilw launches are:

Multiples ON ToWs from humvees and bradleys when i first got game and played us campaign.

Then once from a t64 (missed) and 2 stabbers shot from a bmp 2 (ukrainian) that missed.

Otherwise the only time ive ever seen atgm vehicles fire successfully and repeatedly was brdm 5s with the missiles on top. Wasnt that a game with you Ian? Where i attacked?

 

(Again i know this is anecdotal but i dont have some agenda i just want the 2ms to fire kornets. Sburke and antaress proved me wrong. Bravo. But why wont mine fire. Or kinos. Or anyone else (pls if yours def have speak up)

I will run tests and i doubt theyll be as exhaustive as some peoples are lije theres a thread where i believe kino tested and 2ms never fired. Nevertheless the saves will be available and ill run it with abrams and brads a few times with diff ranges etc. 

Ill admit when im wrong freely but ill be damned if i wont go down swinging if i feel there rlly is an issue

Edited July 28, 2016 by Sublime

[A Canadian Cat]

18 minutes ago, Sublime said:

And seriously how many times did we play pbems where i was Russians with 2Ms. ? At least 30 or 40. Seriously.

I don't think we have played that many times but half a dozen anyway.

 

18 minutes ago, Sublime said:

Otherwise the only time ive ever seen atgm vehicles fire successfully and repeatedly was brdm 5s with the missiles on top. Wasnt that a game with you Ian? Where i attacked?

Yep, those guys did some good.  The are even less robust than BMPs though.  But yeah missiles took out T64s

 

18 minutes ago, Sublime said:

(Again i know this is anecdotal but i dont have some agenda i just want the 2ms to fire kornets. Sburke and antaress proved me wrong. Bravo. But why wont mine fire. Or kinos. Or anyone else (pls if yours def have speak up)

I will run tests and i doubt theyll be as exhaustive as some peoples are lije theres a thread where i believe kino tested and 2ms never fired. Nevertheless the saves will be available and ill run it with abrams and brads a few times with diff ranges etc. 

Ill admit when im wrong freely but ill be damned if i wont go down swinging if i feel there rlly is an issue

Yeah, getting to the bottom of why they choose to fire and why they don't will defiantly help.  Good luck.  Hopefully between everyone here we can figure it out.

[Sublime]

Im absolutely thunderstruck. Is it possible some problems are pbem only? Im literally hotsesting bmp2ms against abrams and the first turn of contact a kornet launched i about $hit my pants it hit and penetrated too! Wtf happendd there wasnt a patch?

[Sublime]

Btw i got the save anyone wants it. 5 bmp2ms of carying exp motivation and leadership versus 5 non aps abrams with tiny cover arcs. Thing is i didnt do lane tests i did me on a small map ajd had them encounter eachother in diff. Areas and somewhat diff ranges tho it is a bit tight. Id say a dozen not half. Though i guess dozens is an exageration and im thinki g of all the pbems i played at my height last yr

[Sublime]

God i hate testing i never do it  now im so curious i need

Someone to test if its pbem related

Someone to test if its combined arms related. Maybe a plt on plt pbem as soon as we get a launch we can end if we do. Im amazed i never saw a launch in so many games and ive seen 6 in 4 min of this hotseat test.

[Sublime]

Ok  here goes. Frm initial testin its clear to me that for whatever reason 2ms now fire kornets perfect. I know im not entirely nuts and i know other people noticed the issue but it seems fixed tho as said above id like to try 2 things out. Antaress you have my apology i was wrong.

[antaress73]

4 hours ago, Sublime said:

Ok ill eat crow. I was wrong. Odd. Ill run tests tonight then. How is it that mine never fired in hundreds of games. Ask IanL or Nidan1 how many times theyve fought my 2Ms with no kornets firing.

I cannot get mine to fire no matter what I do. And what about the other people who cant get them to fire, and vanir saying its a known issue? Not saying your wrong but i got no problem puttn a test of mine together and showing you mine will not fire

Antaress sorry for what? Im happy for you. I just dont understand 1. The tests that were done that showed the 2ms never fired and the problems a multitude including me have never seen.

Besides soft factors what specifically do you do diff if anything when using them to get them to fire?

Sburke you know ive been playing cm for a  long long time and therefore know how to play the game and the mechanics of the game. I cannot get the missiles to fire nor have ever seen them fire.

Id also like to point to Kinos (?) tests ran on all red atgm vehicles where he got em all to fire cept the 2m. Can anyone explain that then?  And for tonight when im home- what parameters do you guys want for my tests in case the bmp2ms fail?

I dont know. Maybe its an issue only found in multiplayer games ? They fire all the time in my games against the computer . I wasnt using them since you and other people were saying they didnt fire their kornets but since i've decided to check and found out there was no issue I started using them. I never attack an "intact" Abrams or Bradley, I arty the hell out of them or strafe them with helicopters and SU-25s before engaging them with kornets or I try to do so from a non-frontal aspect. I try to degrade them sub-system wise as much as I can before engaging them with anything other than tanks. Or I sacrifice ATGM launchers by hitting them with missiles (and maybe kill them outright)  to degrade them even if they dont penetrate (the launcher gets killed) then engage with tanks, making it easy and obtaining favorable exchange ratios.

Edited July 28, 2016 by antaress73

[hattori]

Yup, sorry Sublime.  I ran a lot more thorough tests last night, and yup.  I had my regular BMP-2Ms dual firing their Kornets at Abrams.  (I still can't get over how tough those tanks are).  Strange that I had never actually got one to do that in a game.  Perhaps without short fire arcs on the Abrams, none of the BMPs would have ever had a chance to fire them.  It did seem to take a while from spotting to firing (and then guiding on top of it).

[VladimirTarasov]

@Haiduk In one motor-rifle battalion how much ATGMs are assigned to it? 

[Sublime]

A lot. If u get a bmp one 3 for every platoon plus more for command mortars atgm etc  for defense its better to get a btr tac grp.

 Hattori youre a little late on your " sry sublime" i had alrdy done my own tests and found out that for some reason they now work. I am curious abt the aveams cover arcs, also the multiplayer aspect, and having combined arms aspect. I have a save of my test and ots hotseat and u see the 2ms engage and fire and salvo at abrams in a variety of situations not a lane test  the bmps are all diff aoft factors too.

Still i know i had major problems getting the 2ms to fire vefore ans they saw the same type of target same range lobger shorter in every situation u can think of and they never fired. Since there hasnt vbeen a patch i genuinely wonder what happened and want to test the 3 variables i mentioned

Pbem

Combined arms combat

Cover arcs

Anyone want the save pm.me.yiu clearly see 2ms.engage and destroy abrams

 

[hattori]

lol, you sure come across as touchy sometimes Sublime.  

I can give you a little more info on the variable from my tests to see if it makes any difference.  First, the distance I had them firing at was 1400m.  Abrams were elevated above the BMPs, with no trees or other major vegetation or any other obstacle remotely in the way.  The BMPs did not have target arcs, only the Abrams to keep them from firing (which they eventually did anyways after receiving fire).  

The BMPs appeared to take some time to actually fire.  I was also playing hotseat, the Abrams clearly saw all the BMPs for a while before they fired.  There is zero chance the BMPs would have ever got those missiles off in a real game before going up in flames.  I am starting to suspect the reason we are not seeing it in games is purely the BMPs stand no chance of being undetected long enough to actually fire their Kornets before an Abrams spots them and fires.  I also wonder if there is any logic that they will not use Kornets if there are any obstacles remotely in the flight path.

Anyways, until I actually crack open the code and read it, I'm just guessing.

[sburke]

Word of caution- I never said there wasn't an issue.  In fact I explicitly stated " How often they do so and if there are other issues I have no idea, but it is apparently a bit more complicated than "they never ever ever fire ever."

Don't throw the kornet out with the bath water..... err something like that.  My only point is if there is an issue it is a little more complicated.  Target facing may matter for example or acquisition issues. Mine was about as basic a test as you can get.  It was not going to expose any complicating issues.

Hattori might actually have an answer.  In my case the BMPs took over 20 seconds to spot and fire.  This is on a billiard flat map, no vegetation, 1km distance good weather.  I haven't run the US side of that save to see how quickly the Abrams spotted the BMPs, but I'd suspect it was faster than 20 seconds.  It could be simply that the spotting/acquisition cycle for the BMP 2M is just too slow to complete the job.  With only two crew.... well it isn't far fetched.

Edited July 28, 2016 by sburke

[Haiduk]

3 hours ago, VladimirTarasov said:

@Haiduk In one motor-rifle battalion how much ATGMs are assigned to it? 

I donn't know how much ATGMs in real - see my comment above. Before a war battalions on BMP havn't ATGM platoon, because considers that BMPs have ATGM launchers and this will be enough. Only battalion on BTR has platoon of 4 ATGM and 2 SPG-9 by peace time structure. But already in summer 2014 all BMP mech.battalions, and since 2015 motorized infantry battalions, established from territorial defense battalions have received ATGM-platoons. So, this change we have time to implement in the game. But we put it by known peace time BTR-battalion structure. I suppose, that in real in ATGM-platoon can be 6 ATGM and 3 SPG-9. And this is minimum. And plus supernumenary and captured weapon.  Real war often break paper TO&E too strong %)

If we say about battalion, to it can be also assigned ATGM battery or platoon from brigade's AT-battalion. 9P148 (I hope, will be added in next module) or 9P149. But mostly MT-12 are attaching.

Edited July 28, 2016 by Haiduk

[Sublime]

Hattori i wasnt trying to come across touchy but i had made about 5 posts in a row ant being wrong the process of discovery etc  it seemed you skipped all that to jump to say sorry sublime as if i hadnt admitted i was wrong and changed my view so i responded that you had basically been ninjaed by abtaress' sorry sublime.

 

Well i dont know in the saved game i can provide my bmp 2ms spot pretty quick in fact the first one was reg 0 0 and he woulda gotten a missile off that penetrated and killed. The abrams partner woulda killed him though. In other cases the abrams definitely would have killed the bmp2ms but that doesnt matter to me i csn use them like cheap khriz and keyhole them now that the kornets apparently fire.

I also found out bmp2m auto cannon fire will penetrate abrams rear no problem at close range.

[Vanir Ausf B]

8 hours ago, Sublime said:

And what about the other people who cant get them to fire, and vanir saying its a known issue?

It is a known issue, and it's a much broader issue than just the BMP-2M. That it is possible for BMP-2M to occasionally fire missiles under certain circumstances  (probably at long ranges at which the 30mm canon will have lost most of its energy) does change that so don't freak out. 

[hattori]

It was actually sympathy "sorry" as I know this issue is a big deal for you.  Perhaps you need to be Canadian to understand we apologize for things that aren't our fault -- sometimes it is purely to show empathy, yes it is weird.

[Sublime]

Yes i guess i didnt understand that way but i never meant any disrespect.

Acrually vanir rhe test i did the bmp2ms were firing their missiles at closer type ranges and using their autocannon only when under minimum kornet range i was actually impressed.

This has been a big deal to me and i still really want to make sure itll work in multiplayer and stuff. For so long my 2ms didnt fire missiles and just died over and over and over and its almost like a freddy krueger movie where hes dead and im not sure if im awake or not.

Its been a big deal because the kornet on the 2m does make short work of yhe abrams, the missile firings on my test proved that, and they were somethibg alrdy issued and in the Rus equipment, something that was amongst the few that could truly destroy the US trump card of the Abrams.

[A Canadian Cat]

23 hours ago, Sublime said:

God i hate testing i never do it  now im so curious i need

Someone to test if its pbem related

Someone to test if its combined arms related. Maybe a plt on plt pbem as soon as we get a launch we can end if we do. Im amazed i never saw a launch in so many games and ive seen 6 in 4 min of this hotseat test.

 

You can test PBEM yourself.  Here is what I do: put the name 'test' in the battle name, create a batch file that moves the outgoing email file into your incoming email folder (only for turn files with 'test' in the name).  Then when you play a turn you run your script and it moves all test PBEM files for you to play the other side's turn for.  Rinse and repeat.  I'm at work so I do not have access to the actual script - I'll post a link later if you like.

[VladimirTarasov]

18 hours ago, Haiduk said:

I donn't know how much ATGMs in real - see my comment above. Before a war battalions on BMP havn't ATGM platoon, because considers that BMPs have ATGM launchers and this will be enough. Only battalion on BTR has platoon of 4 ATGM and 2 SPG-9 by peace time structure. But already in summer 2014 all BMP mech.battalions, and since 2015 motorized infantry battalions, established from territorial defense battalions have received ATGM-platoons. So, this change we have time to implement in the game. But we put it by known peace time BTR-battalion structure. I suppose, that in real in ATGM-platoon can be 6 ATGM and 3 SPG-9. And this is minimum. And plus supernumenary and captured weapon.  Real war often break paper TO&E too strong %)

If we say about battalion, to it can be also assigned ATGM battery or platoon from brigade's AT-battalion. 9P148 (I hope, will be added in next module) or 9P149. But mostly MT-12 are attaching.

I appreciate the information. 

[Sublime]

Or ian you could just bs obem me a small platoon of inf on both sides with say 3 abrams and a couple brada on urbaide and several 2ms on mine

[A Canadian Cat]

1 hour ago, Sublime said:

Or ian you could just bs obem me a small platoon of inf on both sides with say 3 abrams and a couple brada on urbaide and several 2ms on mine

Sure, fire it up and send it to our drop box folder.  It will be slower this way but I'm game.  It is a long weekend up here and I am taking a few extra days off work but I'll be unable to play for two days or so in the next five.

[Kinophile]

On our way to Algonquin right now. Already itchy for CMBS... 

[Sublime]

Ok ill have a file in the db later ian when my.son falls asleep. We.ll play it out but im limiting.myself to 2 tanks rest bmp2ms and inf with 1 off board arty. All i ask is you get no.more than 4 abrams and 4 brads. Any amt up.to that is ok but also bring a plt of infantry and one off board. 

The real purpose is to see the 2m missile performance you.ll.be attacking in a probe.