user1000 Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 (edited) I have never seen the M10 crew use the 50, it is swung around in the back is it usable? Do the crews have to stand on the back deck to use it or can it be done through open turret? Edited July 3, 2016 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted July 3, 2016 Author Share Posted July 3, 2016 Answered my own question but will the games AI allow this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted July 3, 2016 Share Posted July 3, 2016 Try it and see... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted July 4, 2016 Author Share Posted July 4, 2016 (edited) I have tried it multiple and haven't seen it that's why I'm asking if anyone has. Let me know if you have. Edited July 4, 2016 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 It was more generally for antiaircraft defense when mounted like that to the rear. Units in the field often modified the mountings on their vehicles, especially tanks and tank destroyers, to provide more operator protection in the anti-vehicular and anti-personnel role. In the days of CMBO I once had a Stuart credited with destroying an enemy aircraft. Does your testing involve aircraft? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted July 4, 2016 Share Posted July 4, 2016 I do have a recollection of someone posting about a rear facing .50cal firing on an infantry target. The crew will *not* stand on the back deck and fire the .50cal forward. They should fire it backwards if a threat appears there (and they notice it). These paper thin open top TDs do not do well when infantry get that close especially from the rear so I'm not sure how long your TD will last during testing unless you keep the test infantry from firing at the TD just to see what happens. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 user1000, The real world primary purpose of the .50 HMG is air defense, as detailed in Figure 29, page 62 of FM 18-15 TANK DESTROYER DRILL AND CREW DRILL... FM 23-60, which covers the Ma Deuce, addresses ground combat. Unfortunately, I haven't bee able to find it online for free, but I would observe that when Audie Murphy made his famous stand at Holzwihr, Belgium, he did so atop the deck of the burning M10, not from the turret. The standard Sherman installation worked the same way, as beautifully shown in the Band of Brothers "Bloddy Gulch" episode in which the Shermans came to the rescue, with the .50s manned from behind the turret and the gunners riding on the deck. 7:04 below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szTGXeLk2Jg&feature=player_embedded Much has been made of field mods to move the .50 to the front of the turret, but despite looking at pages of pics, I've yet to find one M10 so modded. And I be interested to know what percentage of the tank force had this done, too. In any event, I love this quote from an old WW II veteran Marathag met and discussed over on Armchair General. 'Ma Deuce turns Cover into Concealment' Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) 5 hours ago, John Kettler said: user1000, The real world primary purpose of the .50 HMG is air defense, as detailed in Figure 29, page 62 of FM 18-15 TANK DESTROYER DRILL AND CREW DRILL... FM 23-60, which covers the Ma Deuce, addresses ground combat. Unfortunately, I haven't bee able to find it online for free, but I would observe that when Audie Murphy made his famous stand at Holzwihr, Belgium, he did so atop the deck of the burning M10, not from the turret. The standard Sherman installation worked the same way, as beautifully shown in the Band of Brothers "Bloddy Gulch" episode in which the Shermans came to the rescue, with the .50s manned from behind the turret and the gunners riding on the deck. 7:04 below. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szTGXeLk2Jg&feature=player_embedded Much has been made of field mods to move the .50 to the front of the turret, but despite looking at pages of pics, I've yet to find one M10 so modded. And I be interested to know what percentage of the tank force had this done, too. In any event, I love this quote from an old WW II veteran Marathag met and discussed over on Armchair General. 'Ma Deuce turns Cover into Concealment' Regards, John Kettler I already knew that crap man, was wondering if ai would do it in the game. that is neat dismounted action section. Edited July 9, 2016 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 user1000, There seems to be a disconnect here, in that I already cited FM 18-15 and provided a link to it. The information on using the .50 in ground combat is specifically stated there as being in FM 23-60. That's the one I'm still trying to find online for free. I don't know the answer regarding AI, but my position was and is that what was done in WW II should be doable in the game. This is a view by no means unique to me. See, for example the extensive discussion of in-game extraordinary limitations placed on handling ATGs and IGs. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted July 9, 2016 Author Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) 3 minutes ago, John Kettler said: John Kettler , what was done in WW II should be doable in the game. agreed Edited July 9, 2016 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 (edited) user1000, The ground combat drills are quite interesting. Normal expectation would be for the crew to defend from further out, but I guess this is countered by the need to be able to dash back and jump in. If I were the guys on the MG, I'd be pretty windy about the driver's positioning. You should see the crew drills for Armored Infantry in halftracks. Every one of the line squads has a bazooka, whose gunner was trained, believe it or not to, fight from the halftrack and not just the ground. For some reason, that drawing wasn't visible when I last replied. I sure wish the new BB still had numbers on posts. Sigh. Regards, John Kettler Edited July 9, 2016 by John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 After-action reports from the field at the time pretty much said that rear AA mg mount was useless in combat. Except maybe for Audie Murphy-style heroics which one expects was exceedingly rare. I had thought the .50 cal had been disabled in the game until I recently got the commander to use it by pointing the tank arse-end to the enemy and letting him fire over the back. So if you want to suppress the possible occupants of a building 900m+ away without wasting cannon ammo you've got an option. Its not good for much else, especially if the opponent is close enough to fire back. Remounting the HMG to the front was a late-war thing so I'd expect after we've crossed the Rhine uparmored/reconfigured US vehicle options will start to show up. The only weapon that I can recall from the whole franchise that could be dismounted from the vehicle for ground use was on a single Brit recon 4x4 in CMSF. Oh, and of course the mortars on HT mortar vehicles. Maybe I'm forgetting something. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony P. Posted July 9, 2016 Share Posted July 9, 2016 The Vickers guns in the Bren carriers are actually mounted to the vehicle when the team is mounted, provided they're in their own kind of Bren carriers, not just the regular version. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) It wouldn't be a pain, all they would do is turn the turret to use the .50 and say the swivel had a 360 turn they wouldn't have to move the turret much.. wherever the enemy was. I also thought the rear mgs requiring rear deck standing were to be manned by ground troops (non tank crew members) in support situations. If they see enemy they could just jump on and engage quickly. Maybe even a way of security like the M8s provided to the M10s. Edited July 10, 2016 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted July 10, 2016 Share Posted July 10, 2016 On 7/9/2016 at 0:08 AM, user1000 said: I already knew that crap man, was wondering if ai would do it in the game. And with an attitude like that, it's little wonder why Wicky told you to try it out yourself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted July 10, 2016 Author Share Posted July 10, 2016 (edited) 8 hours ago, LukeFF said: And with an attitude like that, it's little wonder why Wicky told you to try it out yourself. more of this whiny s*** on such a simple topic? You sure know how to turn a toothpick into a house. Edited July 10, 2016 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted July 11, 2016 Share Posted July 11, 2016 Let's keep this discussion respectful guys, please. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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