Oplot numbers

[Kinophile]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Ukrainian_Ground_Forces#Tanks

Several other sources, none of them hard core military analysis (although one cited Dymitry Tychuk), suggest similar numbers.

Ie. 50 produced in 2015, 120 in 2016.

 

[BTR]

If only. 

[Haiduk]

16 minutes ago, kinophile said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equipment_of_the_Ukrainian_Ground_Forces#Tanks

Several other sources, none of them hard core military analysis (although one cited Dymitry Tychuk), suggest similar numbers.

Ie. 50 produced in 2015, 120 in 2016.

 

Malyshev's tank factory encountered almost with the same problems like Armata manufacturers and even more. No modern machinetools, no modern technologies, no qualified personnel, no state funding, all production capabilities engaged in building Oplots for Thailand. Also no critical need in SO modern tank - separatists uses the same T-64BV and T-72B like in Ukrainian army. Time of one Oplot building in 2014 was 14,5 months. In the mid of 2015 some new machinetools were bought, but unknown either gave funding on UKR Oplot or not. State military ordering program is classified. Some sources says about approx company of Oplots, which will operate in 2017. But many experts say Oplots will build in small quantity - this tank already hasn't any upgrade potential and too expensive. Now tests of new universal platform "Azovets" have started, which will develop in new generation tank project. Also possibly TIREX project (deep T-64BV upgrade with unmanned turret) of "Azov" regiment design bureau will come like temporary MBT instead Oplot, while new generation tank will be under design works.

You can ask "so, why Oplot then in the game ?". Because of on moment of TO&E assembling in 2012-2013 there was information about Ukraine will adopt Oplots in 2013-2014 and will expand production to 2017 - time of the game. But reality turned out other. But from other hand, Russia in the game has T-90AM, which their MoD will not order for service. 

[Kinophile]

5 hours ago, Haiduk said:

 Also no critical need in SO modern tank - separatists uses the same T-64BV and T-72B like in Ukrainian army.

...

 Now tests of new universal platform "Azovets" have started, which will develop in new generation tank project. Also possibly TIREX project (deep T-64BV upgrade with unmanned turret) of "Azov" regiment design bureau

Fascinating, re Azov regiment developing a battlefield variant. 

I'm curious about your rationale in regards to separatists tanks - wouldn't a far more modern tank,  completely over-matching the separatists forces,  be exactly what you'd want? 

[Kinophile]

So, the AZOV battalion is busy with custom builds based on the T-64.

I see the TIREX (ie. T-REX) which uses the T-64 hulls and turret, but adds better ERA, rearranges the fighting compartment and significantly upgrades the electronics. 

And then there's the twin turreted Azovets...

http://www.palba.cz/album/displayimage.php?pid=17067&fullsize=1

[BTR]

Is this true @Haiduk?

[Haiduk]

4 hours ago, kinophile said:

Fascinating, re Azov regiment developing a battlefield variant. 

I'm curious about your rationale in regards to separatists tanks - wouldn't a far more modern tank,  completely over-matching the separatists forces,  be exactly what you'd want? 

This is not regiment. This is designer team (including former members of Morozov design bureau) which exists at "Azov"... movement. This is not only regiment, but their civil wing, civil volunteers, businesmen, close to Minister of internal affairs Avakov, for which "Azov" its his favorite toy. No many information leaked, but known, that state have announced a contest for new heavy BMP and new tank. Together with state design bereau, "Azov" design bereau tale part too, received some funding for own project and through six months made "Azovets" - heavy tank support vehicle for urban combat. But they claimed, that if tests results will be good, on the base of "Azovets" will be developed new universal tracked multy-purpose platform. Their TIREX now is just concept on paper, but they claimed that have tecjnology, which allow to upgrade 10 T-64 to TIREX level at the months. Sound like fantastic, but from other hand war showed, that private structures and volunteers more flexible in implementation of novations in army. While state companies are canning not to build even light armored car Dozor-B, private companies have developed and give to army several types of armored cars - Bars, Kozak-2, Triton, Varta-2, not counting KRAZ armored vehicles.  

About modern tank. Situation is such, that we can't wait of future. Hundreds tanks need NOW and even day ago. Separatists has tank group, which exceed all tank forces of Germany. What better - to spend huge money and to receive battalion of Oplots through 5 years or to repair old good T-64 and some T-72 in order to fill all brigades with armor and to have reserve of tanks ? Most our tank losses - artillery and MLRS fire on stationary tank positions, mines and road bombs and technical problems. Oplots will not help so much in these conditions    

Edited May 11, 2016 by Haiduk

[Haiduk]

2 hours ago, BTR said:

Is this true @Haiduk?

Partially. Insufficient of funding is felt in part of special fund of state budget on which tied some programs. All other maintains from general fund part. Several days ago, for example MoD gives 50 millons UAH for ordering of armored medical vehicles. 

[Kinophile]

5 hours ago, Haiduk said:

This is not regiment. This is designer team (including former members of Morozov design bureau) which exists at "Azov"... movement. This is not only regiment, but their civil wing, civil volunteers, businesmen, close to Minister of internal affairs Avakov, for which "Azov" its his favorite toy. No many information leaked, but known, that state have announced a contest for new heavy BMP and new tank. Together with state design bereau, "Azov" design bereau tale part too, received some funding for own project and through six months made "Azovets" - heavy tank support vehicle for urban combat. But they claimed, that if tests results will be good, on the base of "Azovets" will be developed new universal tracked multy-purpose platform. Their TIREX now is just concept on paper, but they claimed that have tecjnology, which allow to upgrade 10 T-64 to TIREX level at the months. Sound like fantastic, but from other hand war showed, that private structures and volunteers more flexible in implementation of novations in army. While state companies are canning not to build even light armored car Dozor-B, private companies have developed and give to army several types of armored cars - Bars, Kozak-2, Triton, Varta-2, not counting KRAZ armored vehicles.  

About modern tank. Situation is such, that we can't wait of future. Hundreds tanks need NOW and even day ago. Separatists has tank group, which exceed all tank forces of Germany. What better - to spend huge money and to receive battalion of Oplots through 5 years or to repair old good T-64 and some T-72 in order to fill all brigades with armor and to have reserve of tanks ? Most our tank losses - artillery and MLRS fire on stationary tank positions, mines and road bombs and technical problems. Oplots will not help so much in these conditions    

Very interesting points, thank you!

[ncc1701e]

Reading an article recently about Ukrainian MBTs, I have seen that only ten T-84 Oplot have been delivered to the Ukrainian army. All the  production of the Oplot is actually going to Bangkok. Is it true? I was quite surprised.

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, ncc1701e said:

Reading an article recently about Ukrainian MBTs, I have seen that only ten T-84 Oplot have been delivered to the Ukrainian army. All the  production of the Oplot is actually going to Bangkok. Is it true? I was quite surprised.

Yes. T-84 and BM Oplot are different tanks. BM Oplot is deeply improved T-84. Now all BM Oplots are building for Thailand in number less of 10 tanks per year. Malyshev's tank factory have old machine-tools and tecnilogies and lack of state funding, so we can't produce Oplots in enough quantity. Also cost of one Oplot for Ukrainina army is equal to cost of 20-30 stored T-64BV repair or 10 T-64 modrnization. In oor comditions better to have a company of old tanks, then 1 Oplot. On 2017 state as if gave the money for 10 Oplots building for Ukraine, but this we were hearing every year since 2009...

Really we have 6 T-84, which in this year was repaired and partially upgraded and directed in army, but I don't know in which brigade. 4 tanks were sold to USA many years ago. 

Edited February 2, 2017 by Haiduk

[Marwek77 aka Red Reporter]

Great idea to sell these tanks to USA? To be targets there?

[John Kettler]

Is this the TIREX? If so, I think it's pretty cool. Can see why some would call it Baby Armata. Not sure what the source is, since I don't read either Russian or Ukrainian. Great technical illustration.

Also, Didn't Sputnik News get it wrong here?  From what little I know, isn't this the Azovets, not the T-Rex/TIREX?

Haiduk,

Seems to me the Azov DEsign Bureua, if you will, is Ukraine's QRC (Quick Reaction Capability), a way to quickly get time new combat capabilities fielded through cutting red tape and going full bore on getting the item out now, better yet, yesterday. Here in the US, when we really want something quickly, we assign it a priority called DX-BRICKBAT. I believe this was how we, on a crash basis, designed, tested and fielded the first Wild Weasel SEAD aircraft.

"BRICKBAT" and "CUECAP" is Department of Defense (DOD) terminology. "BRICKBAT" is used to refer to those DOD programs designated by the President as being of thehighest national priority. The "DX" rating symbol under DPAS is used on contracts and ordersplaced in support of these programs. "CUECAP" is used to refer to those DOD programsdesignated by the Secretary of Defense as being of the highest defense interest. The "DO" ratingsymbol under DPAS is used on contracts and orders placed in support of these programs. BRICKBAT and CUECAP programs are listed in a classified DOD document called the Master Urgency List (MUL)." 

Regards,

John Kettler
 

Edited February 3, 2017 by John Kettler

[Kinophile]

I wonder how usefully that Azovets really was... Can't imagine much help.... 

Edited February 3, 2017 by kinophile

[Haiduk]

9 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Is this the TIREX? If so, I think it's pretty cool. Can see why some would call it Baby Armata. Not sure what the source is, since I don't read either Russian or Ukrainian. Great technical illustration.

T-REX and Azovets projects, alas, already dead. Or almost dead. A conflict between regiment "Azov" and design buerau "Azov" have happened. Dirt story. Now DB changed name on "Arey". But now they don't have any facilities for own works.

Now other heavy IFV on base of BM Oplot introduced, but this is next utopia. 

[John Kettler]

Looks impressive, and I'd need new underwear if I was a Russian proxy crew in a tired old BMP-1 and encountered that. In a clear case of form follows function, pretty much the same operational environment and similar weapon tech, it is foredoomed to be considered the Baby T-15 Armata. What a shame about the TIREX! The Azovets doesn't bother me as much, though I'm sure it would be useful.  The more I read about how many woes your armament production has, the more inclined I become to recommend forceful wartime measures to deal with the blatantly corrupt making things worse while their nation's at war.

Regards,

John Kettler

[HUSKER2142]

Releasing new tanks for army Ukraine is now expensive. It is much cheaper and more efficient to upgrade the tanks T-64B / BV, which in Ukraine in large quantities. Replace dynamic protection, fire control system and deliver thermal sight finally. Make something like T-72B3, but take into account all the mistakes.

 

^{Выпускать новые танки сейчас для армии Украины дорого . Намного дешевле и эффективнее будет модернизировать танки Т-64Б/БВ , которые у Украины в большом количестве . Заменить динамическую защиту, СУО и поставить тепловизионный прицел наконец то . Сделать что то вроде Т-72Б3 , но учесть все ошибки .}

 

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by HUSKER2142

[akd]

distance protection system = guaranteed to never get anywhere near a battlefield

[Haiduk]

15 hours ago, HUSKER2142 said:

Releasing new tanks for army Ukraine is now expensive. It is much cheaper and more efficient to upgrade the tanks T-64B / BV, which in Ukraine in large quantities. Replace dynamic protection, fire control system and deliver thermal sight finally. Make something like T-72B3, but take into account all the mistakes.

^{Выпускать новые танки сейчас для армии Украины дорого . Намного дешевле и эффективнее будет модернизировать танки Т-64Б/БВ , которые у Украины в большом количестве . Заменить динамическую защиту, СУО и поставить тепловизионный прицел наконец то . Сделать что то вроде Т-72Б3 , но учесть все ошибки .}

Yes, we have choose this way. Several days ago Poroshenko have a meeting with Ukroboronprom officials, where told about critical need of upgrading of T-64BV and T-80BV. Reportedly first party of modernized tanks we will see to the end of 2017. But Ukroboronprom is such company, which can foil even easy task... Poroshenko have said, that we need many tanks in shortest time, which will be "not worth" then Russians, and because of better to have for equal money one company of upgraded T-64, than 1 BM Oplot and time of upgrading is 2-3 months against more than year of BM Oplot building, so we need to upgrade existing park of tanks.

What will be main steps in upfrading (but this is just variant):

- mounting of IR targeting system

- merging of existing observation optic and NV devices with 3rd generation EOP

- "Nozh" ERA in existing "Kontakt-1" boxes

- FBCB/navigation "Bazalt" system

- additional protection of rear semi-sphere of tank

- new digital radio comm. devices

- tank commnder will be able to launch "Tucha" smoke grenades

- additional 3-4 "Tucha" tubes on turret

- gunner will have a button of emergemcy turning of the turret 

- mounting of 1G46M sight with opportunity of ATGM "Kombat" launch

- new engine 850-900 hp

- minor improvements of running gear

  

[ncc1701e]

Thanks Haiduk for your data. Perhaps a more realistic project than the Berserk is the BMP-1 UM:
http://www.janes.com/article/59935/new-bmp-1-upgrade-developed-in-ukraine

Around 1000 BMP-1 seems still in service in Ukraine and it could be less costly to upgrade them to this standard.

 

[John Kettler]

ncc1701e,

Welcome aboard!

The BMP-1 UM looks like a winner to me, and I'm sure the passengers will appreciate the additional headroom. I've sat in the back of an MTLB when visiting the NTC, and at 5'11" height, that's no picnic. Even worse is getting in and out, for that matter sitting, in the back of a Mi-24 I was fortunate enough to get permission to enter at an aviation museum. Sadly, the cockpit and gunner's positions were still under their canopies which were under a tarp. Russia would be most unhappy to find the geriatric BMP-1s now had sharp teeth and were out there in quantity. In terms of the COF, given the dreadful state of Ukraine's IFV park, these would greatly improve the combat capabilities of the users.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Haiduk]

On 06.02.2017 at 9:47 PM, ncc1701e said:

Thanks Haiduk for your data. Perhaps a more realistic project than the Berserk is the BMP-1 UM:
http://www.janes.com/article/59935/new-bmp-1-upgrade-developed-in-ukraine

Around 1000 BMP-1 seems still in service in Ukraine and it could be less costly to upgrade them to this standard.

 

This project (UM) already two years is presenting to MoD. Generals looking, saying "this is good, this is optimal decision" and... nothing. This model even wasn't direcetd on program of state tests.

Edited February 10, 2017 by Haiduk

[IMHO]

Haiduk, does Ukraine produces 30mm barrels itself or these are taken from the stocks of BMP-2?

I guess ZTM produces though in a low rate production process. Am I right? And the barrel bars / steel are internally produced or imported?

Edited February 11, 2017 by IMHO

[Haiduk]

36 minutes ago, IMHO said:

Haiduk, does Ukraine produces 30mm barrels itself or these are taken from the stocks of BMP-2?

I guess ZTM produces though in a low rate production process. Am I right? And the barrel bars / steel are internally produced or imported?

Produces on "Precision mechanic factory" in Kamyanets-Podilskyi, "Lorta" in L'viv (ZTM-1 for BTR-4) and KBAO in Kyiv (as KBA-2). Barrels also produce in Ukraine, possibly in Kyiv: http://kba.kiev.ua/produktsiya/30-mm-stvol-avtomatichnoji-garmati-kba-2.html 

 

Edited February 11, 2017 by Haiduk

[IMHO]

Interesting. Certainly a big step ahead for the Ukrainian military industry.

PS A bit off-topic, how can one quote someone's nickname? Like nicknames on blue background.

Edited February 11, 2017 by IMHO