GhostRider3/3 Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Ok so after starting from scratch again and again reading the manual regarding the usage of AI... I have come to the conclusion either the manual needs to be re-written or something is broke. I know I have been here before with issues regarding the AI and how to use it... I don't need to go to much detail as everyone has the manual., but.... page 102 describes 'Scenario time" basically if the mission starts with 2:30 hours/minutes for example.. the clock winds down on scenario time while they describe your AI actually adding time from the scenario start time... ??? ok right got it. page 103 they give a bloody hell of an example using 05:00 and 10:00 minutes???? does any scenario start at 5 or 10 minutes... no, not that I know of. Page 104 they say.. screw all that we just said.... you don't HAVE to use the exit between...and ...settings at all.. Simply leaving them on default may be the best thing. I mean HOLY JESUS... make up your mind already... is it scenario time.. or who gives a flying you know what. Needless to say I did a small scenario using default.. the way points were close enough so that the vehicles could arrive with no issues... end of story.. they never moved. Can anyone re write the manual so it makes sense... frustrating as all hell. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinkin Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) Been around that learning curve too. PM me and we can exchange btt files to get you going with the timings and such. It will not take too long. Working directly from the file will be faster. Kevin Edited March 23, 2016 by kevinkin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 AI plan time starts when the scenario begins and counts forward from zero. So if you want a unit to begin moving at the start of the scenario you don't put any time on it. If you want a unit to wait ten minutes from the beginning of the scenario before moving anywhere you put ten minutes in the exit before and after slots - I think they are called something different now but I hope you understand what I mean. That's all there is to it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Yes I left it on default and they sat there and never moved.. my guess is the waypoints even for vehicles need to be a certain range in meters.. something they don't even know themselves. they just say play test it... well I guess you can screw around with waypoints for hours.. if they are too close, they don't work.. to far.. they don't work. CRAP..... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 This kind of thing is why I took one look at the manual for scenario creation and have given it and the editor a wide berth ever since. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 @GhostRider3/3 don't give up yet. Once it all gels together, it is very rewarding. I was just going to get back into some scenario writing after a nice long break. We can learn & relearn together if you want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) 9 hours ago, GhostRider3/3 said: Yes I left it on default and they sat there and never moved.. my guess is the waypoints even for vehicles need to be a certain range in meters.. something they don't even know themselves. they just say play test it... well I guess you can screw around with waypoints for hours.. if they are too close, they don't work.. to far.. they don't work. CRAP..... As long as the waypoints do not overlap then the AI will move. If the AI group is properly assigned, the waypoints do not overlap or aren't fragmented, and no time has been assigned to the waypoint then the AI will always move. Now you can have fragmented waypoints that partially overlap and it will work but you have to be practiced at it. Here is how you might troubleshoot your issue: All of your pixeltruppen are automatically assigned AI group A1. In order to assign your truppen a different group then you need to assign those truppen to an AI group in the purchase screen. Select the unit you want to assign to a group and press F2 to assign that unit to AI group 2 and F3 to AI group 3 etcetera. In scenario author test mode you can find out which troops are assigned to which groups by selecting the truppen and looking in the area where the suppression meter is. The AI group the unit has been assigned can be seen there. Step one: Are the truppen that I am trying to have move assigned to the AI group that I am plotting waypoints for? Step two: Do any of the waypoints that I am working with overlap? Step three: Are the times associated with each waypoint the correct times that I want? Step four: Am I working with the correct AI plan? Edited March 23, 2016 by ASL Veteran 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Remember to put all 4 of the other AI plans on "Never Used" AND SAVE before you play the scenario in scenario author mode to observe AI following the plan you are crafting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 (edited) Also, have you watched some of the parts of this video series? Anyway, google Proambulator Youtube The Scenario Project... Edited March 23, 2016 by kohlenklau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted March 23, 2016 Author Share Posted March 23, 2016 Great points everyone.. I will definitely be changing on how I go about testing them. I am currently working with another to remedy some issues. Thanks for all of your assistance and support. Semper Fi. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted March 23, 2016 Share Posted March 23, 2016 Good luck with it and make us all proud! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) 12 hours ago, kohlenklau said: Also, have you watched some of the parts of this video series? Anyway, google Proambulator Youtube The Scenario Project... No, was not aware we had any. Also what do you mean by overlapping waypoints? I never have waypoints go back and forwards, sometimes if I have 5 tanks I will use 5 dots to try and represent where I would like them to go... is that overlapping? I will also check out the videos. Edited March 24, 2016 by GhostRider3/3 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 24, 2016 Share Posted March 24, 2016 (edited) You can overlap the waypoint for order 1 and order 2 by painting the waypoints for each order in the same location. If order 1 and order 2 are painted in the same place then the unit located in that waypoint will not move. It is a fairly easy mistake to make because the waypoint for each order only appears on the map when that specific order is selected. One very common mistake is for someone to paint several waypoints and then decide they want to do something different. They then paint the new waypoints but they don't delete the old waypoints. The AI then has two separated waypoint locations to choose from and sometimes the AI will not move something because it is sitting on an old waypoint that you don't even know it is assigned since it wasn't deleted. Edited to add that yes, the total footprint of the waypoints that you paint need to be large enough to fit the force you intend to move, otherwise the truppen won't move. Edited March 24, 2016 by ASL Veteran 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted March 24, 2016 Author Share Posted March 24, 2016 Ok luckily I never go back over my waypoints, but that is excellent information. I am happy to report that I have spent all day completely reworking the scenario and so far everything is working to plan. Thanks for everyone's great input. I can never say enough about the Battlefront community helping each other out. I wish this was correct the first time as it leaves a bad impression, but now that I truly know how the AI and the numbers work.. it basically has been smooth sailing. Semper Fi. J. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted April 1, 2016 Share Posted April 1, 2016 I think the manual just confuses things really. It's not really about waypoint distances and all that. Exit before and after timings just specify the time the AI group will exit their current order and start executing the next one. "Exit" means "Exit current order". So if your 'Exit after' is set to 5 and your 'Exit before' is also set to 5, then the unit will start moving after exactly 5 minutes from the start of the scenario. If your 'Exit before" is set to 10, then the unit will randomly wait between 5 and 10 minutes from scenario start until it starts moving. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted April 2, 2016 Author Share Posted April 2, 2016 14 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: I think the manual just confuses things really. It's not really about waypoint distances and all that. Exit before and after timings just specify the time the AI group will exit their current order and start executing the next one. "Exit" means "Exit current order". So if your 'Exit after' is set to 5 and your 'Exit before' is also set to 5, then the unit will start moving after exactly 5 minutes from the start of the scenario. If your 'Exit before" is set to 10, then the unit will randomly wait between 5 and 10 minutes from scenario start until it starts moving. Yes... I finally have it down pat now. Its amazing what you can do.... when you know how to utilize the bloody features properly. I have everything buttoned up and fixed.... will be uploading it soon.. I just feel bad that it was messed up from the start.. now Single player should be pretty exciting for this scenario. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 14 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: I think the manual just confuses things really. It's not really about waypoint distances and all that. Exit before and after timings just specify the time the AI group will exit their current order and start executing the next one. "Exit" means "Exit current order". So if your 'Exit after' is set to 5 and your 'Exit before' is also set to 5, then the unit will start moving after exactly 5 minutes from the start of the scenario. If your 'Exit before" is set to 10, then the unit will randomly wait between 5 and 10 minutes from scenario start until it starts moving. Ermm not totally correct I'm afraid - I think the bottom bit is not totally correct... So within an AI Plan slot you have the following: Top line: the "movement speed" - this is the type of movement you want to the AI to use for the CURRENT order .e.g AI Order 2 "Dash" is how fast it will travel (and the behaviour associated with that movement i.e. the unit will disregard any and all threats in an effort to reach it's next painted AI point associated with the next order. Second line down: if the unit is going into buildings this will tell it which parts of the building you want the unit to head to. Third line down: this is the "behaviour" you what the unit to have whilst undertaking that order e.g. active = looking out for any enemy and engaging any and all spotted (although this then is in context with the movement order speed some of which will override the units desire for a fight!. Fourth line: this is for units carrying guys. If you action this the passengers will debus at the END of the movement command (NOTE: you then need to allow enough time for them all to hop off their rides - this gets a bit complicated as units hopping off their rides does appear to be linked to the type of movement. The AI tends to adopt a caterpillar crawl type of movement e.g. one unit moves so far, stops, whilst the rest of it's buddies in that AI group then move. Once everyone is as the same point the movement is repeated until they all reach their destination. You also need to ensure there is enough time for everyone to get off their ride between one order and the next. You'll find this may take a wee bit of fiddling with timings and commands. Fifth line: this is the key one and is vital you get this right for the stuff above to work in your plan as intended. The key thing to mind about this is that the order time (as others have said) is linked to the game clock (I'll keep it simple for now - I'll leave triggers out...). This timeline you create is for the NEXT AI order NOT the current one. So in SET-UP you would need to click the "ADD" button which creates the slot for AI Order 1. Anytime you create in SET-UP now refers to when the unit will start the following order. So if we go to set-up in the AI Plan the time you add in EXIT BETWEEN means that the time range there - the time at which the unit will move out; whilst "...AND" means when it has to get to the next painted waypoint associated with the following order (so you would need to paint a point under AI Order 1). So if you put 00:01:00 (1 minute) the AI unit will wait till the in-game clocks has counted one minute from the start of the scenario. So if the scenario started at 0800Hrs and you want the unit to start at 0801Hrs you would put 00:01:00. So when the clock strikes 1 minute off they trundle (how they move depends on what "movement speed" you allocated for AI Order 1. Now the next time you add - "...and" means that you want the unit to reach the next painted waypoint (associated with AI Order 1). So if I use an EXIT BETWEEN of 00:01:00 " + "...AND" of 00:05:00 means that the AI unit at set-up will wait until the clock reaches 1 minute after the start of the scenario. The unit will then begin to enact whatever I have tasked it to do in AI Order 1 within 5 minutes. Now enemy activity, me giving the unit a huge distance to cover, difficult route finding, are all things that can throw of the timing. But mind the AI unit will endeavour to reach it's next destination in that allotted time frame of four minutes. If it falls behind it's designer imposed timeline it tends to push on regardless until a/ it's KOd b/ it's morale state is such it halts and goes to ground. So once they reach AI Order 1 then the timings I add under that order is the timeline for them to undertake the AI Order 2 whilst the associated movements commands and behaviours are then changed (as per above) under 2. This sounds complicated but my top tip is create a small simple test map with a few platoons and play with this till the above is second nature. Then start small with scenarios. It really is simple but you do need to spend some time with a small test scenario playing with this methodology. Once you realise the times do not apply to the current AI order your golden! Mind start very. very small on a test scenario and play about. Keep it simple oh and don't try to micromanage the AI - you'll go mad. Mad I say!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) My first attempt at programming the AI in CMx2 involved two infantry battalions, a StuG battery, and two T34 companies. I didn't end mad, but I haven't touched the scenario again in over a year and a half... Edited April 2, 2016 by BletchleyGeek 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted April 2, 2016 Share Posted April 2, 2016 (edited) Working with the AI is a ton of fun. For anyone interested, I am doing a small Tobruk scenario right now. ~500m x ~800m desert map. Axis AI attacks. I have 3 breach teams A1, A5 and A9 that will slowly crawl up to the barbed-wire on the left, middle and right respectively. They pass through a mined area and then blast their way through the wire and cross over into an anti-tank ditch. There is a separate friendly trigger where they each go into the ditch to summon follow on platoon sized forces (A2thruA4, A6thruA8 and A10thruA12) if successful. If those follow on forces get through and onward, some other forces A13 attempt to proceed on through the wire. An axis FO A16 is positioned at the start but has no assets. They show as reinforcements A15 so the suppressive fire can arrive at different times. An HQ A14 can be randomly placed around so sometimes the assets have no link to allow use by the FO. Edited April 2, 2016 by kohlenklau 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostRider3/3 Posted April 15, 2016 Author Share Posted April 15, 2016 Again thanks for all the input, great stuff. I have it worked out now. One major thing is not to forget your "OTHER" AI Plans.. to be turned OFF. dear god that had been my bane I think. Now that I feel pretty savvy in creating AI plans.. conducting about 35 tests and creating plans and such, I feel very versed now. MY next goal will be to delve into "Triggers" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 3 hours ago, GhostRider3/3 said: Again thanks for all the input, great stuff. I have it worked out now. One major thing is not to forget your "OTHER" AI Plans.. to be turned OFF. dear god that had been my bane I think. Now that I feel pretty savvy in creating AI plans.. conducting about 35 tests and creating plans and such, I feel very versed now. MY next goal will be to delve into "Triggers" Excellent Two top tips for working with TRIGGERS. Create a small test scenario and play about - using TRIGGERS to co-ordinate AI unit's moving; using TRIGGERS to co-ordinate AI reacting to both ENEMY and FRIENDLY movements. Take care when using TRIGGERS to co-ordinate friendly units moving as it's really easy to set-up a lop in which nothing moves... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted April 15, 2016 Share Posted April 15, 2016 5 hours ago, George MC said: Excellent Two top tips for working with TRIGGERS. Create a small test scenario and play about - using TRIGGERS to co-ordinate AI unit's moving; using TRIGGERS to co-ordinate AI reacting to both ENEMY and FRIENDLY movements. Take care when using TRIGGERS to co-ordinate friendly units moving as it's really easy to set-up a lop in which nothing moves... Triggers are fun for sure. At least you could make the AI look like acting to a more human like battle plan, with some better coordination and reactions. Keep looking forward to branching triggers (if - then - else), maybe in V4 or 5. I´d like to also point to a similar thread in CMBN forum some months ago: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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