DAR Artemis VS Spitifire SPITFIRE STAY OUT

[Artemis258]

Crosspost from TFGM
 

Well, after the spectacularly bloody showdown between myself and Gnarly,  I've taken on a new opponent. It's the Ruskis vs the Ukranians again but with a twist.... I'm the Ukranian!

 

This battle was set up by my opponent Spitfire, and it looks like an interesting one... the map looks good, but before we get into all that analysis boredom, let's go shopping!

 

THE LIST

 

 

With a very decent amount of points to spend, I got to have some fun with this. A company of tanks AND a company of infantry? yes please!

 

With a few hundred still left over, I could even tweak a bit. Dropping a tank from the company bulked up my play money a bit. One tank here won't make much difference, and gives me three units of 3 to play with. With these extra points, I could outfit each platoon with their own corsair-toting crazyman. Having played the Ukranians before, I know the power these little dudes can bring to the battlefield. They're the only eastern shoulder-fired ATGM, giving them a much better mobility and smaller signature than their tripod-mounted brothers.

 

I also took a half-platoon of MANPADS. I don't like air support in these games terribly much - I find it unreliable in all but the biggest of battles, and expensive. That said 5 dudebros with iglas will give me a bit of a buffer against anything Spitty brings against me there.

 

 

I also kept the inf. Battalion's grenade launchers, recon teams and antitank platoons. All indispensable.

 

This has forced some cutbacks. My guys ride into battle in BTR's not BMPs, and only two of them are the modern shiny 4E's. My rationale here is that the BMPs, while a capable fighting vehicle, don't bring to the battle the same punch as an Oblot. I wish I'd had just enough points to mount them in at least the modern ones with the RWS (Which I ADORE!), however I got greedy with other things. So that's that.

 

Finally, I've got the 6 tubes of 120mm mortars from Battalion. These dudebros are off-map. Lazy sods.

 

 

With the remaining points (a few hundred) I specced up most of my tanks to Veteren level, my company and platoon atgm's to Vet or above, and my battalion AT assets to crack!

 

anything left over specced up the footsloggers, starting with arty observers then moving down the chain of command.

 

 

 

Some group photos! In case you're wondering about the units, I use Kieme's excellent retextures for all my units! They can be found HERE http://community.battlefront.com/topic/117795-kiemes-modding-corner/?do=findComment&comment=1620919

 

 

 

[Artemis258]

The Set-up!


Ok, so the battle will take place on an interesting QB map I've never played before. It's 1200m square, with rolling terrain and some interesting features. I've named what I consider the key points of terrain here, just to give an overview; 



Time to put on my best Bil Face and take this seriously! Pre-battle analysis is something I need to get better at (as in; remembering to do!) so doing so publicly will help I think!)

METT-T (Mission, Enemy, Terrain, Troops, Time)


Mission - The map itself has two major objectives and three minor ones. In my experience in PBEM, while considerable points are available for destroying the enemy, achieving objectives can be the tipping point of the match. That said these objectives are distributed such that it's a reasonable assumption that we'll achieve about 50% of those each. Hence I believe this battle will be decided purely on casualties - either by points, or if one side achieves a decisive blow by the other, indirectly winning through kills by then gaining other objectives. The mission then is simple; 

KILL THEM ALL

Enemy - This is a tricky one. Intel is zero. Spitfire's a new user here, so I've no idea how he plays. No AAR's to look at. Nothing. 

What I do know;
-He has approximately enough points to field  a good mix of tanks and infantry. If he cuts back on one or both, he could conceivably field some air support or heavy artillery, though it would reduce his ground forces considerably. Liekwise, he could trade numbers for very high quality, and it could be in his interests to do so.

-Neither of us have APS, due to a prior agreement. 

-Given the point values, I expect T90-AMs. I do not expect 72's. 


My guistimate would be a reinforced mechanised company with at least a platoon of Armour, mounted in BMPs. Strong supporting assets, maybe battalion level Artillery. 


Terrain- This is interesting. Lots of hills and dips, lots of scattered tree cover. The conditions are warm, wet, with light rain and a gentle north-westerly breeze.

The view from my deployment zone



Key terrain has been marked on the map at the top, I'll include some pics from various perspectives. 

Heartbreak Ridge

The view, looking towards my deployment zone (looking west)

The most dominating piece of terrain, and it's on his side! From here a player can get eyes on most of the rest of the map! And it's on his side! Behind it is the resort, which gives that VP an excellent reverse slope position to defend from, and it's sheer size and position gives him the ability to mask his movement almost completely! That said, cover is sparse, limited to a few trees and a copse to the north end (Sherwood Forrest). This is the key piece of terrain, but I don't think control of it will win the battle per-se. Sitting on top of it gives a great view, but also exposes you to the enemy, and it's sheer size means a hull-down position really restricts line of sight in the vertical. It's true value lies in being too big to ignore, and to cover the southern movement of troops behind it. 

Sherwood Forrest

The view from Sherwood Forrest



A good, well-covered overwatch of the northern end of the map. It also covers some of the blindspots in the aproaches to the foot of Heartbreak ridge. It'd be a phenomenal place to put an anti tank team or maybe hide a tank behind. I think I'll shell it to oblivion. 



Toko-Ri and the Lunar Flats



Sense a naming convention here? Toko-Ri overlooks the Lunar Flats all the way to my opponent's deployment zone, as well as giving a great view of Heartbreak ridge. I'd love to use it, but it has less cover than the ridge itself. The approaches have some great low ground cover - I'm fairly confident of GETTING there, but I'm less confident of staying there. Moreover, if my opponent charges across the flats to surprise me, he could well be in a position to kill anything trying to take position there. But it does have a nice view...

The flats are just that -the longest section of clear terrain and a probable death trap to cross. Plus the ploughed field offers great opportunity to get bogged.

Fury Rise


My own perfect overwatch position. Great cover from the woods, steep sides, providing amazing defalaide for my movement behind it and an amazing view in front of it. 

It'll probably get shelled to oblivion. 


The roads are roads, typically they're in valleys, I don't have much to say about them at this point so I'll just post the pics of the MSRs. 

The view down Able



The View down Baker



Troops  - outlined above 

Time-  The battle time limit is 1 hour. 

 

[Bud Backer]

Oh, great map! I had a brutal but fun fight with @XIGundocIX on this map as the Russians vs his US... The terrain is a lot of fun, with plenty of cover. 

[A Canadian Cat]

Excellent - another AAR to read.  Loving those icons BTW

[gnarly]

Following!

[Artemis258]

THE PLAN 

Given what I know of the terrain and the objective layout, and the technological gap between my forces and the enemy, my plan is initially defensive. I know this may not sit right with the more bloodthirsty (c3k!) however I only stand a chance if I kill him on my terms, not his. Thus the order of the day is hull down, hide in the gullies, and ambush! 

However, my present position is ill-suited to the task and I can't let him take all the victory points unopposed. Moreover, I predict that Heartbreak Ridge offers too great an advantage in terms of concealed movement to ignore... 

So, I have dived my forces into three sections. 


1. The bulk of my infantry, and 2/3rds of my tanks, will move to occupy the village and immediate surrounds. The 1st MEch inf platoon will remain mounted at the rear (western edge) of the village, screened by buildings, as a QRF along side the tanks of 2 platoon (armoured), slightly behind them in the trees. The two tanks from 3rd along with their COY take up overwatch either side of MSR BAKER, again to the west. The rest of the infantry will take and secure the village, 3rd taking the center will 2nd pushes out to the northern edge. My MANPADS are largely scattered around this group. 


2. My company-level Anti-tank and support assets (Recoiless rifles, MGs and GMGs) will spread out among the various hills and forrests, spred out to proivde interlocking and decentralized fields of fire. I want it so as many avenues of approach as possible are covered with minimal exposure to artillery or direct fire. 


3. My recon, supported (at range) by the 1st tank platoon, are to rush east to determine the enemy's movements around Heartbreak ridge and (if possible) ambush them! They have their own corsair launcher, some RPG-22's, as well as 2 GMG's and an RPG-7 (some lucky sod found kicking around in a BRDM!) Additionally, one of the Reconciles rifles can also support. 


The plan; Ambush the enemy when he sticks his nose out and bloody it badly. 


Here's a map

 


And some pics as my men move out!




Recon on the move. Notice platcom and AT dismounting already



Recon member gets run over. No Yuri! Look both ways! 




Don't drop that! Reciless Rifle crew loses his AK

 

[Haiduk]

...  deleted... 

Edited March 3, 2016 by Haiduk

[Kinophile]

I just played a RT game on this map. It looks big buy the open sightings make it a long range bear pit. That southern road is the key - if you can capture the woods at the top if it,  you can reinforce and roll him up.  But its a very dangerous woods, with some perfect ambush doors. 

I found that getting that woods,  followed just after with a mech Inf charge to the top if the ridge and over = game over. There is NO cover on his side if the ridge. Drop your Arty all over it and you'll do a he'll if a lot of damage.

The town to your left is not much use -  even a medium Arty barrage wipes out a lot of the buildings. And you can become bottled up in it. 

Go your right flank,  screen your force and get those woods at the top right, is my suggestion. 

[Artemis258]

Hmmm, I'll take that on board Kinohile, but my concern there is technological superiority; The Ukranians don't stand up  too well in a balls to the wall charge on the Russians. I want to artit his forces in an ambush first if possible, and at the very least asertain what it is I'm up against. However, I have left a 2nd platoon mounted for the QRF, they could carry out that attack if the opportunity arises! 

 

 

Turn 1-2

 

 

It was a fairly quiet start, with some minor traffic jams (moving nearly two companies into a small town! but everyone seems to be where they need to be, more or less...

 

At the end of the first turn one of my ATGMs made out a lone russian wandering along the northern road, not really in cover, nor moving very fast... Over the next turn he popped in and out of LOS... a scout? the far end of an infantry squad? A diversion? I need more information!

 

First Contact

 

 

To this end I've pushed  the 2nd platoon up into the western northern forests, as well as their BTR-4 to cover anything that might pop out from the north road vp.

 

2 Plt Advance

 

 

 

I've also kept the 1st platoon mounted as well for now, just in case I need to be more mobile. They're in cover behind the village, and the first few moments of real battle will probably be ranged armour/AT fire anyway, so they're safer there. Also, if arty comes down on the town, they're a bit more covered.

 

 

 

 

Meanwhile, on the other side of the map, my recon forces have dismounted and potentially found their first quarry; a tank sound contact, just on the other side of the valley, and right next to my RPG team! Hopefully the hill will shield them from the tank's sight, which will almost certainly be directed towards my own lines. If all goes well, they can hunt around to flank. Popping a tank in ambush this early into the game will certainly give Spitty a pause for thought, and may convince him that his southern flank is under threat...

 

 

Hunting Armour

 

 

 

 

My thoughts here are that at this point, Spitfire and I are performing almost exactly the same movements! Pushing the bulk of our forces to the left while probing with recon on the right... however it seems (and I don't have much intel at all right now!) that his advance has been much more caution than mine. Hopefully that infantry contact is the most forward he has his forces... which means his intel on my disposition will be even less than mine on his. Maybe. Or, he could have a drone in the air and know exactly where I am. sod. Oh well, time will tell. Hopefully Sergeant Honcharenko and his boys can gain first blood on an enemy tank next turn! 

 

The board, turn 2

 

Edited March 5, 2016 by Artemis258

[Kinophile]

Where that red dot is,  at to right,  that's where I'd burst my much Inf charge to the hill. 

Even staging loosely in that area (watch for flanking fire from directly across the map!) will give a tactical reserve to your right hook. 

The key here is to crush his left flank,  because his centre and right are in terrible open terrain, plus you'll have the hill to cover your continuing hook into his rear.

Conversely if you fail here he will have a nicely covered approach through your right and into your centre. 

That's my read anyhow! Good luck! Be wary of  long range sniper tanks! 

[Kinophile]

.. 

Edited March 6, 2016 by kinophile

[Artemis258]

Turns 3-7 

And it's off with a bang! Spitfire and I had a very good back and forth last night so this is going to combine a few turns into one. What I'm going to do is divide it by event, so each section will account for 4 minutes of life of the events described. 



On my right, my recon force moved into contact with a sizable enemy force, about a platoon of mechanised infantry. However, the vehicle contact disappointingly turned out to only be a missile-toting truck, not the glorious tank I supposed it to be. My Skiff team popped a few shots, eventually destroying it, while the recon platoon tried to pivot around the base of the hill. Sadly, this is where I discovered the BMP3s, and airburst rounds knocked out two of my teams, though they took some of the enemy with them!. The SKiff and the recoiless rifle also made a good showing for themselves, bagging a BMP each! 


Don't see one of those often. This was the first veicle contact my recon team unearthered. It didn't hit anything nor last long - it's shooting at a BTR. Map Point 1



Buhbye! Map Point 2 



A Russian tends to a wounded comrade, bagged by my recon team. Above him, the dust of the missile from the previous shot can be seen drifting away. 

Meanwhile, apparently preplanned bombardments of the first major treeline NE of my  deployment zone began a few minutes in, killing the mg team and most of the mortar platoon HQ there. Thankfully, it's not near any of my ATGM positions. I might have to relocate though, and importantly, I've lost one of my experienced spotters for my mortars. 



Artillery rains down on the Mortar Hq. The mg team's already bought it. Notice the SKiff and GMG just below, lucky!! Map Point 4

The center town was the scene of first blood, a Kornet team popped up right where i expected them in Sherwood forrest, and I stupidly had left a BTR (the Recoiless rifle transport) exposed. Not a huge  loss but a stupid one. The ammunition that went up is of a greater loss than the vehicle though, so on balance it's not a real blow. 5 minutes in my mortars came down and I've not heard from him since, and a truck was seen retreating from the forrest. Hopefully the airburst rounds knocked out the launcher - they tend to be delicate to that sort of thing. Towards the end of the trun some small explosives started to rain on the town and another BTR, doing minimal damage... I suspect there's a Grenade Machine Gun somewhere up on the hill, but be damned if I can find it. 



Ffffirst Blood! Map Point 5




Grenades! Mp point 6

On the far left one of my ATGM teams trying to make Fury rise came under fire from small arms and a tank, forcing them back with one casualty, though launcher intact. Guess that's a no-go then. Quickly the culprits began to pop up on thermals... T-72s? At least four of them too. Now that's a surprise, but a pleasant one. 

 

Old school. Map Point 7

Ouch. SKiff team cops HE Map point 8

Behind them my FO tries to manouver to get a lase on one of the tanks, but is spotted. Thankfully they too are able to pull back without significant losses. I'm pushing 2nd plt from my armoured company up under defilade to see if I can get an angle on that armour, but I really want to pop one with my infantry first so they're not expecting it.... I don't want to add a tank to my losses. 



The Butchers Bill Turn 7;

Losses:
1 BTR
1 MT-LBU arty obs vehicle (no clue what killed this, I missed it)

men; 
1st and 3rd teams from the recon platoon KIA - including my RPG toting section. Damn. 
1 casualty from small arms on the left. 
3 from Mortar HQ 
1 MG team 

total killed: 12. 4 teams rendered combat ineffective. 


Kills
1 BRDM ATGM Vehicle
2 BMP-3s 

men;

1 MG team probable 
1 Kornet Team possible
light casualties inflicted on eastern mech platoon confirmed
light causalities on western infantry possible 

Assessment: 

The destruction of the BMPs outweighs my infantry on the right flank, but I've got to be careful here. I'm going to act on your idea @kinophile try and move two platoons up to the east from the town to help, but it's going to be tricky getting them there. A loss of a vehicle could kill a whole squad, while moving on foot is too slow. I'm going to try and fix that enemy force on the east with my recon while I do this - to that end my grenade machine guns are repositioning. Thankfully my tanks give pretty good overwatch too...  The grenades flying into town are a bother, but I'll suppress probable positions with the btrs and ignore them for now. I'm also surprised at my opponents choice of vehicles... T-72s, non-era BMP3's, and some whacky missle-toting trucks are not quite what I expected... but seem to be playing in my favour. I wonder what he's got hiding back there...?



Map. The numers indicate positions of each of the screenshots above. Red indicates possible movement of my mechanised QRF, though I don't want a transport popped en route. Green indicates my tank repositioning, the dotted their holding point. 

Edited March 8, 2016 by Artemis258

[Kinophile]

Take your time repo'ing those mechies. Best in bits and pieces,  dismounted is fine. Better late and alive,  than never arrive and dead! 

He's gone for a very cheap force  - maybe he saved up for some serious Arty or air support? 

 

[Artemis258]

mmm that's what I'm thinking too... I hope it's the latter, I have manpads  

[John Kettler]

Artemis258,

Excellent presentation! Clear and cogent. I looked at your force buy, and I find the selection logic sound. Below strength tank platoons seem entirely reasonable given UA breakdowns, maintenance issues, and casualties sustained in ongoing combat. Were TRPs available? If not, I believe BFC needs to figure out a way to include them. I've looked at the US fire support FMs, and we routinely select TRPs along the axis of advance. TRPs are not just tools of the defense. I believe buying AD was wise, and I speak as someone who first was mauled by Su-25s but was ultimately saved by a couple of Stinger teams. If Spitfire's gone light on equipment expense he might well have bought some aerial unpleasantness. Those missile trucks are either BRDM-2 (AT-5B) or BRDM-2M (AT-5B). Back when I did this stuff for a living, the Russians used to mix AT-4 and AT-5 in order to gain certain capabilities a pure configuration wouldn't. You are facing a pure AT-5B/Konkurs-M configuration. Armed with 15 ATGMs each (5 on mount and two complete reloads), this thing can really hurt you. The AT-5B/Konkurs-M has a tandem warhead and can penetrate 750-800 mm of RHA armor after getting through ERA. Finally, I hope for your sake he doesn't have any T-90AMs because they are superb run and gun tanks with Veteran and Crack crews. I have direct experience operating them, and they are a joy if you like fluid, high tempo armored warfare. Thunder on the steppes! If I were you, I'd be quite wary of Krasnopol et al. There are plenty of things you have which don't have LWRs, making them vulnerable to zero notice kill via single round. If he's bought high quality FOs, likely with the associated artillery observation vehicles, he could bring down lethal fire on you very quickly, way less than your five minutes to get mortar fire on his positions. Look forward to seeing how your battle unfolds. You seem to be doing quite well.

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited March 9, 2016 by John Kettler

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

The lack of ERA is odd, considering the prime Ukrainian AT assets are pretty weak to ERA on a whole.  Could be he's going for strictly mass....or that he's got a sacrificial company of "bad" stuff he's feeling out your lines with.

[Kinophile]

or that he's got a sacrificial company of "bad" stuff he's feeling out your lines with.

This. 

 

[Artemis258]

Sorry for the delay folks, uni got a bit on top of me over the weekend! As a reward, pictures! LOTS OF PICTURES! 

Turns 8-12

The next few turns have nothing special worth mentioning except... Ukranians can't shoot straight!


I've said it before and I'm sure I'll say it again. Guided missiles my arse. 

Let's step back a bit. 
Remember those -72's? Well, I was able to edge a corsair team up to take revenge...


These guys 

The AT team quickly gain a spot, and take aim with their nice shiny modern pretty man portable laser guided state-of-the-art weapons of the glorious Ukranian army... 



Ambush! This is how my strategy should unfold!

However, it seems my operator got distracted by a butterfly or something... 



Incompetency!  

In hindsight, I figure that the rain is playing merry havoc with the laser guidance system. However it was a perfect opportunity gone terribly wrong, and the response is swift. After 2 minutes of heavy shelling the team looks more like this...



Do or do not. There is no try. 


However, this distraction allowed me to move my surviving skiff on FURY to get an angle... the lads sprint up, drop the tripod, take aim...


There he is... plinking our lads!



Clearly these gentlemen paid attention in training! 

However, as they say, no good deed goes unpunished... 


shi...


The earth shattering kaboom. Wrong side. 


Other than that, the turns this round have been pretty standard. 






The situation at the end of turn 12... 




 

[Kinophile]

It's not an ambush if you're in their frontal fire arc..  :-)

Edited March 17, 2016 by kinophile

[Haiduk]

Alas, remote control device for Skif not realized in the game (its also give opportunity to set range manually w/o laser rangefinder, wich use cause laser warning alert of Shtora). This would give a chance to survive to ATGM operators. 

[Kinophile]

How prevalent is that RC? And is it radio link,  you mean? 

[Haiduk]

28 minutes ago, kinophile said:

How prevalent is that RC? And is it radio link,  you mean? 

Each Skif (Stugna-P more correcttly, Skif this is export variant with Belarusian traget system) has RC. It connected to target system on tripod with 50 m length cable. 

Here it - box like notebook with purple cable

Edited March 21, 2016 by Haiduk

[Kinophile]

Ahah. 

Wasn't there something similar for the strela, or igla? With the potential for salvo fire from multiple launchers at once? 

As UKR/RUS I've often resorted to WW2 tactics of the pakfront to take out top line MBT's: 2-3-4 ATGMs all on one zone.  Salvo fire then bail. Rinse and repeat. This is opposite to the usual tactic of missile sniping.works best in MOUT.  

[Artemis258]

Hi guys! 

No turn update yet as I've not processed enough turns, however; 

@Kinophile sadly the terrain doesn't favor a decent distance side ambush However I'm counting on the fact that my opponent should still only have minimal knowledge of my forces... he knows I have some tanks... but none have been terribly exposed and it's possible he doesn't know what I have, nor exactly how many... Likewise he knows I have ATGMS, and he knows he's popped at least 3... He shouldn't have any idea as to my infantry disposition, save my recon force... 

@Haiduk BLASPHEMY! This is your missile launcher! There are many like it, but this one is yours! WITHOUT YOUR MISSILE LAUNCHER, YOU ARE NOTHING! Remote control is for pansies like drone operators and artillery officers! 


On another note, my redeployment of my infantry platoons seems to be going well... they should be in place before the enemy re-enforces that point. There is a BMP nosing around there somewhere, but close enough for an RPG to knock it out.... indeed my recon troops nearly did (shot high), so that might give him pause for thought. 

There are also some new heavy sound contacts popping up near the road running towards my right... I might have to see if I can sneak some armour up too... 

[Kinophile]

A rule of thumb for me is to emphasize paranoia:

1 bmp =  a platoon of inf.

2 bmp = possibly a company.

+1 tank = GTFO and arty **** on them right now.

 

Not literally, but each sighting insinuates it. I tend to err on the side of craters v. maybes...

Edited March 22, 2016 by kinophile