Best way to play operational level?

[IICptMillerII]

I haven't used Panzer Battles. If I remember correctly Panzer Battles Normandy was just released a few weeks ago. Just from looking at screenshots and such, it looks like it would work. The scale is more fine (appears to go down to the platoon level) but all the other base mechanics and such seem to be the same. So you could probably adapt the CMPzC rules to it rather easily. I imagine much of the rules would carry over. 

If its what you prefer theres nothing stopping you from trying it out and making it work. As Blazing 88 said though, there are much fewer Panzer Battle games that cover a lot less of the war at this point. One of the benefits of PzC is that there is a game covering every major operation of WWII in Europe, so you can play any CM game alongside its corresponding PzC game to have an operational layer. With Panzer Battles you are limited to Normandy or Kursk (which can be kind of simulated using CMRT)

One of the problems I see with using PzB is the scale. Because its more fine (PzC is 1x1km hexes. I don't know what it is in PzB but I know its smaller. 500x500m?) you're going to find that you'll have to fight out a lot more battles in CM, and that you'll need a lot more maps. You'll either have to create a bunch of custom maps, or make a master map of the area you're fighting over in PzB and then cut the map down for specific battles. I myself am starting to run into this issue in my Sicily campaign in PzC. 

Anyways I hope that helps. I understand that the Tiller games can present a financial issue. At first I did not believe they were worth the asking price for what I was planning on doing with them. I can tell you however that it was worth it for me. Aside from just being an operational layer for CM, the Tiller games are a lot of fun to play on their own, and the OOBs that they come with are very comprehensive and can be a lot of fun to pour through. Quick example, Audie Murphy's unit (Company B, 1st Bat, 15th Inf Rgt) is present in my Sicily campaign. Company E, 2nd Bat, 506th PIR (Easy Company) is in PzC Normandy. There are of course other famous units as well. I think its really cool seeing how these famous units fit into the whole picture of the war. And as mentioned previously the Tiller games come with OOB and scenario editors which greatly increases the value in my opinion. I'm sure the PzB games come with similar functionality as well.

[slippy]

cheers blazing, didn't mean to sound dismissive of the good advice everyone has given. I just like to explore a few possibilities, its the way I am.I will go with PzC, quite like all the theatres so could be an expensive time ?

really do appreciate all the help and advice.

cheers

slippy

 

p.s. Thanks also Cpt Miller, hadn't noticed your reply earlier ( on my phone) you have been extremely helpful, thank you PzC it is.

Edited February 5, 2016 by slippy

[Blazing 88's]

cheers blazing, didn't mean to sound dismissive of the good advice everyone has given. I just like to explore a few possibilities, its the way I am.I will go with PzC, quite like all the theatres so could be an expensive time ?

really do appreciate all the help and advice.

cheers

slippy

 

p.s. Thanks also Cpt Miller, hadn't noticed your reply earlier ( on my phone) you have been extremely helpful, thank you PzC it is.

Cheers slippy, good hunting!

[Stele]

Is PzC used because all of the homework of research is done in that game along with scenarios? Has anyone tried doing the same using Cyberboard or Vassal (both are free).

[IICptMillerII]

Is PzC used because all of the homework of research is done in that game along with scenarios? Has anyone tried doing the same using Cyberboard or Vassal (both are free).

As I've stated earlier, PzC meshes extremely well with CM. This means that the terrains, units involved, scenarios, and game mechanics for both compliment each other. Primarily, the scale fits, they are both realistic aimed games, and they both have powerful editors that allow for creating custom battles/scenarios. 

For me the only real drawback of the Tiller games is that there isn't one that covers any of the modern conflicts covered by CM. There are Tiller games that focus on more modern warfare (Modern Campaigns they're called, 3 games about a Cold War gone hot and 1 covering the Arab Israeli wars) but none that cover either Syria in 2000's or Ukraine post 2010. 

I tried using Vassal to simulate an operational layer for CMSF and CMBS but I didn't have any luck with it unfortunately. I would recommend giving it a try yourself, especially if you have some experience using Vassal or Cyberboard. Theoretically you could create an operational layer by just having a hex map and unit counters and leave all the mechanics up to CM. Let us know if you come up with anything!

[kohlenklau]

Some folks here do use vassal. Broadsword with sburke I think has done a CMRT Bagration Op Layer game using Vassal. It has the ability to hand edit the op level maps. If it clicks with your style, then it can be a good thing, especially with the single player approach where you are the only person who needs to see or know the status.

I bought several of my PzC games off e-bay as used or 2nd hand and they were $20 or so and it comes with instructions that exactly 99% mirror what I already know so the economy is there in my opinion. JTS still supports them with patches and the modders do the new art work with the ability to use Ron Volstad stuff as "not for profit" which the JTS guys or anyone else could not negotiate, right?

My key saying is that it is not perfect but you enjoy it to the best you can and have fun.

Maybe what the single players might need is a "SP partnership" where a buddy helps arrange your stuff and you arrange his. So the fog of war is maintained a bit better...?

[slippy]

Cpt Miller

Have another question if you don't mind please mate? According to your posts above as i understand it i only edit the PzCr forces, firstly so that the CM and PzC OOB's are the same then after an assault (played out with CM) to update casualties losses.

What about after a few turns when a unit in PzC may have losses from direct/indirect fire, Air attack or a previous assault? The unit will have a depleted strength going into a fresh assault so wouldn't i need to edit the CM forces before playing that assault so that they are not at full strength?

The above also applies for any defending units that are depleted.

Then carry on as previous by editing any further losses from this second assault in CM back into the PzC game.

Hope i made myself clear mate, basically what i am saying is that following your posts earlier the Units are all 'fresh' so at full strength, therefore CM does not need editing, how do you work it for under strength units from PzC into CM.

Apologies if the answer is obvious but i couldn't seem to see any info on this above or in the guide rules referenced earlier

 

I am going to have a trial at the PzC demo Mius 43 using the CMRT demo just to see how i get on (I know not a direct correlation but will do  to help me get my head around it)

regards

 

slippy

[IICptMillerII]

I believe I understand you're question. What you do is, when making the tactical battle in the CM editor, set the headcount to the percentage shown in PzC. So for instance Company A/1/115th Inf Rgt was at 88% strength after the battle. So for the next battle it is in, you set it to 90% headcount in the CM editor. The reason it is set to 90% is because the CM editor goes by percentages of 10, from 90 to 50. You have to round down or up depending on what percentage strength the unit in question is at. 

So, where it says Headcount Full, simply change it to 90% or whatever percentage your unit is at. 

Trying the Mius 43 demo sounds like a good idea! I think CMRT should have all the equipment that you'll need for that. I know that CMRT can be used for Kursk reasonably well, so you shouldn't have any significant problems. Let us know how it goes!

As always if you have any more questions feel free to ask!

[slippy]

Thanks Cpt Miller, exactly what i was after. The RT Demo doesn't have full functionality with regards to mission building so could not investigate. I will have to wait until i have the money to spare for the full game.

Cheers mate for your help

 

slippy

[Stele]

As I've stated earlier, PzC meshes extremely well with CM. This means that the terrains, units involved, scenarios, and game mechanics for both compliment each other. Primarily, the scale fits, they are both realistic aimed games, and they both have powerful editors that allow for creating custom battles/scenarios. 

For me the only real drawback of the Tiller games is that there isn't one that covers any of the modern conflicts covered by CM. There are Tiller games that focus on more modern warfare (Modern Campaigns they're called, 3 games about a Cold War gone hot and 1 covering the Arab Israeli wars) but none that cover either Syria in 2000's or Ukraine post 2010. 

I tried using Vassal to simulate an operational layer for CMSF and CMBS but I didn't have any luck with it unfortunately. I would recommend giving it a try yourself, especially if you have some experience using Vassal or Cyberboard. Theoretically you could create an operational layer by just having a hex map and unit counters and leave all the mechanics up to CM. Let us know if you come up with anything!

I was a little intimidated to set something up in Vassal, but I gave it a try. This looks pretty straightforward to use, although the Youtube tutorial videos help a lot. I'm working on a Gela counterattack scenario; division vs division as a starter. Thankfully I know a bit of Photoshop so it wasn't too hard to put a map together, and I've used the Combat Mission briefing counters to make counters. Having fun with it so far, and will hopefully be a good platform to use with Combat Mission.

[hobo]

Hey Cpt - Sounds like great fun.  Send me a PM if you ever want to try it 2 player.

[IICptMillerII]

I was a little intimidated to set something up in Vassal, but I gave it a try. This looks pretty straightforward to use, although the Youtube tutorial videos help a lot. I'm working on a Gela counterattack scenario; division vs division as a starter. Thankfully I know a bit of Photoshop so it wasn't too hard to put a map together, and I've used the Combat Mission briefing counters to make counters. Having fun with it so far, and will hopefully be a good platform to use with Combat Mission.

If you'd like, post up your results! I've looked around in the past for a way to simulate an operational layer for the modern CM games and dabbled with Vassal a bit but as I mentioned before I couldn't seem to get it to work for me. I'm still looking for a way to make it happen for the modern CM games, so if the system you made in Vassal is working for you then maybe it'll work for CMSF/CMBS.

Hey Cpt - Sounds like great fun.  Send me a PM if you ever want to try it 2 player.

I'll be sure to let you know! I know that there are still some CMPzC campaigns being run right now on the forums by Kohlenklau, and there are more campaigns coming in the near future. They're always recruiting for various positions, so give em a look! 

[choppinlt]

Well ya know guys, there is supposed to be this great new game under development that should satisfy this desire. I think it is called Theater of Operations... 

OK, I couldn't leave this topic alone forever. So I hope we have a presentable demo within a month, because that is what we are working towards. If you or anyone you know are interested in this project, please visit our dogsofwarvu.com forum. You can follow progress or give your opinions which may affect the design of this game. Seriously, anyone who wants a voice can have it here!

I am a long time CM player, I was a beta tester on CMC, and I am constantly bugging the fine men at BFC while doing this project. So getting a link to CM is my end game goal, but we have a lot of work to do to achieve it. And when I say "we" I mean my team AND the entire community that wants this project to succeed. So we need as much support as we can get!

[kohlenklau]

As an open invitation...

If anybody out there wants to organize their own CMPzC Operation for multiplayer on the forums and would desire me as an advisor initially or as needed or whatever to whatever extent until you want me gone! Glad to help with my way of doing things blended with your own approach to whatever ratio you want as you continue to blaze the trail onward. Now play the exciting soundtrack from Chariots of Fire?

[Stele]

Thanks choppinlt and kohlenklau! Glad to see other projects going on.

Couldn't help but try my hand at the Vassal Program. I've been working on it for about two days creating the actual images, the wargaming system, and programming the module to reflect it. Overall, it takes a fair bit of time to do the research of a particular scenario/battle (I chose a semi-historical conflict with the Gela counterattack between the US 1st Inf Div against the German HG Division). Creating the images and map was next, although I had some help using the Combat Mission briefing counters). Next I created a system that could be used that ties in with the actual combat to be played out in Combat Mission, such as units suffering or gaining motivation and fitness after a battle. Losses are tracked on a counter unit in the wargame by flipping them (multiple flip steps to a counter). So I could keep track of a company or battalion's troop level by starting at 100% and flipping the counter to 80%, 60%, etc.

I just need to type up the rules and I can post it. I intend on playing this with a friend; and hopefully it runs smoothly and fun! If so, I think I could make other scenario battles.

[kohlenklau]

I was in Vassal only one time to look for a Malta map. It looked chocker block filled with games and maps. Can't you find any Sicily hex maps already done and use one of them?

I give you a good grade for your efforts but your map is not looking so great compared to what we already have instantly in CMPzC.

But since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if it is good enough for you and your buddy..happy op leveling to you both!

Keep us posted and maybe if you have time, do an AAR to track how things go?

 

[Stele]

I was in Vassal only one time to look for a Malta map. It looked chocker block filled with games and maps. Can't you find any Sicily hex maps already done and use one of them?

I give you a good grade for your efforts but your map is not looking so great compared to what we already have instantly in CMPzC.

But since beauty is in the eye of the beholder, if it is good enough for you and your buddy..happy op leveling to you both!

Keep us posted and maybe if you have time, do an AAR to track how things go?

 

Challenge accepted. I made the hexes quickly to work with as I made the module (I needed something to work with, heck I could have sketched them, but I'm not a masochist). I can definitely improve upon them, although most wargames aren't always going to look pretty. This is pretty much my beta of the module. I'm tempted to go in and use the PzC hex artwork, but I think I'd like to keep the hex artwork specific to the actual maps in Combat Mission.

Since you're familiar with Vassal, would you mind if I shared the current state of the module with you? Interested in some feedback besides the map artwork.

[Blazing 88's]

Challenge accepted. I made the hexes quickly to work with as I made the module (I needed something to work with, heck I could have sketched them, but I'm not a masochist). I can definitely improve upon them, although most wargames aren't always going to look pretty. This is pretty much my beta of the module. I'm tempted to go in and use the PzC hex artwork, but I think I'd like to keep the hex artwork specific to the actual maps in Combat Mission.

Since you're familiar with Vassal, would you mind if I shared the current state of the module with you? Interested in some feedback besides the map artwork.

Any chance this system will be single player as well?  ChoppinIt's system will be.  Soon hopefully!

[kohlenklau]

@Stele I was only in Vassal that one time a year or more back and have absolutely zero know how when it comes to Vassal. Sorry. 

Have you ever been over to the FGM website? There are folks there who hold big operational deals using Vassal. They fought the Normandy June '44 area for several years real time that represented I think just a few weeks or so in historical time.

@Blazing 88's

Maybe what the single players might need is a "SP partnership" where a buddy helps arrange your stuff and you arrange his. So the fog of war is maintained a bit better...?

[Blazing 88's]

@Stele I was only in Vassal that one time a year or more back and have absolutely zero know how when it comes to Vassal. Sorry. 

Have you ever been over to the FGM website? There are folks there who hold big operational deals using Vassal. They fought the Normandy June '44 area for several years real time that represented I think just a few weeks or so in historical time.

@Blazing 88's

Yes that is an option.  However, I think I can wait for an automated version...  due out in the near future.

[Stele]

@Stele I was only in Vassal that one time a year or more back and have absolutely zero know how when it comes to Vassal. Sorry. 

Have you ever been over to the FGM website? There are folks there who hold big operational deals using Vassal. They fought the Normandy June '44 area for several years real time that represented I think just a few weeks or so in historical time.

@Blazing 88's

Awesome, thanks. I'll check it out.

[General Jack Ripper]

I had always wondered at the feasibility of using the Hearts of Iron game as sort of a proto-operational layer.

I never did get around to working it out. Maybe I'll take another look at it.

[IICptMillerII]

Apologies all for the late response, I've been travelling. 

@Stele The system you made in Vassal looks pretty good. I think for the WWII Combat Mission titles I'll stick with PzC as it is a completely pre made system with beautification mods and all, as well as complete OOBs already cooked up. However I think that your Vassal system has a lot of potential for  the modern CM games. As I mentioned earlier I've been looking for a way to simulate an operational level in CMSF and CMBS. If you ever end up making a Vassal system for those games, please let me know! I would be very interested in seeing it and I'm sure others here would be as well!

@choppinIt I have been very interested with what you're trying to do, and I've been following the project for some time now. I would love it if your project comes to fruition! I'm mostly interested in how your game and CM integrate, so I've mainly been following the updates via the CM forums, although I have visited your forums before. I'm pretty impressed with the progress you've been able to make with limited resources and funding. As I hope you can tell from this and other threads here on the CM forums, there is interest in your idea. Be sure to keep us posted on any progress you make!

@kohlenklau I've spent some time lurking on the FGM website before. Lots of great info and AARs there, for CM and other titles as well. In ever did find any posts on how to go about putting on an operational level game (nuts and bolts stuff) but it seems like a great resource nonetheless. I'll have to ask around there and see if any of the systems they use there can be used for the modern CM games. 

@SLIM I've thought about using HOI in the past but I think it's just too big. HOI is very much a strategy level game, and while it does have some operational level aspects, I think it's scale is just too big. I also looked into using the Gary Grigsby games, but I ran into the same problem. However, I did find that these large scale strategy games can be great for giving you viable alternate history scenarios. For instance, to create my CMPzC scenario for Sicily I used HOI to simulate a what if, where Germany had more manpower to spare in 1943 and decided to fight it out on Sicily instead of conducting a fighting withdrawal as they did in reality. I'm very pleased with the scenario so far. I think that scenarios that occur in HOI could be great inspiration for creating operational level scenarios in PzC. Plus, with the excellent editors present in both PzC and CM, and crazy scenario you cook up in HOI can be easily translated to PzC and CM (granted they fit the correct TO&E and timeframe)

I'll encourage those of you who do create operational scenarios (by whichever means you prefer/are able to make work) to post some of the results and happenings from those scenarios. When I return home I'll be sure to snap a few screenshots of my Sicily operation and share them with everyone. My main inspiration for actually getting my hands dirty and making my own scenario was reading through the excellent CMPzC threads here on the forums, headed by the great Kohlenklau. Plus, it's really cool reading through what others have done and seeing it all play out!

 

 

[Stele]

@Blazing 88's Vassal is strictly a boardgame copy program. There is no AI programming, it is strictly meant as a program to play boardgame/wargames in a digital setting. That's not to say that I couldn't make a scenario with AI rules of play.

@IICptMillerII Thanks. I agree that CMPzC definitely has the one up in regards to an automated system, an OOB, and premade scenarios. My idea is to make something that others don't have to buy in order to play another bought game. It's just another option of gameplay, that's all. I don't have the modern CM games, but that is definitely worth a look at doing in the future. My longterm goal at this point is to refine the Vassal rules of play (to keep them simple as possible; no need to bog the players down in the Vassal module when they can just play it out in CM), and to make a set of scenarios for the CM games.

My friend and I are playtesting already. Having fun with it so far as he amassed 20 Panzer IVs to my defenses in the hills.

[Blazing 88's]

This is what I am waiting for, patiently...
http://dogsofwarvu.com/forum/index.php/topic,1848.0.html?PHPSESSID=bfb11f46622dc539494d6ed73c447bc1