SVT-40 Over-Availability

[dundas61]

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone knows how to amend the Soviet rifle / motor rifle squad's weapons allocation to address the massive in-game over-availability of SVT-40s?

Also, do you know if there are any German units using MP44s in this game (which given it's Eastern Front setting means that there certainly should be a few present)?

Regards.

[Cobetco]

SVT-40  was from its inception meant to be the main rifle of the red army, but at the start of the war things were not quite ready for full scale production, that changed around 43 when factories really started to churned them out. so i don't think its over represented at all. but if you would like less of them i THINK if you set the equipment option in QB or the Editor to Poor you'll get mostly Mosin-Nagants. and the as far as the STG 44, its always sprinkled about in German units, and if you want more, once again the QB's or the editor set the equipment option to Excellent. no Sturmgrenadiers in Red Thunder yet.

 (edit) looked it up, factory output of the SVT actually diminished after 42 so i was wrong, but output of the various Submachineguns was increased and bacame more important than rifles so the SVT availability is still probably correct given that most Nagants were probably issued to Staff and logistical types not front line soldiers.)

Edited January 6, 2016 by Cobetco

[ASL Veteran]

You can alter the weapons mix for units by adjusting their quality setting in the editor when the unit is 'purchased' or more accurately 'added to the OB' for a particular side.  If you leave the setting at 'typical' then you will get what BFC deems as normal, but if you change the setting to Poor or something like that you will tend to get fewer automatic weapons. 

[AttorneyAtWar]

SVT-40  was from its inception meant to be the main rifle of the red army, but at the start of the war things were not quite ready for full scale production, that changed around 43 when factories really started to churned them out. so i don't think its over represented at all. but if you would like less of them i THINK if you set the equipment option in QB or the Editor to Poor you'll get mostly Mosin-Nagants. and the as far as the STG 44, its always sprinkled about in German units, and if you want more, once again the QB's or the editor set the equipment option to Excellent. no Sturmgrenadiers in Red Thunder yet.

 (edit) looked it up, factory output of the SVT actually diminished after 42 so i was wrong, but output of the various Submachineguns was increased and bacame more important than rifles so the SVT availability is still probably correct given that most Nagants were probably issued to Staff and logistical types not front line soldiers.)

There is a German unit that is like the sturm grenadiers, its hidden in the armor only formations. Buy a sturm-artillerie brigade and you will see "begleit grenadiers", these guys are outfitted with a large amount of automatic weapons including STG-44's. They are from a special division that was involved in Bagration, the 78 "sturm" division.

[Cobetco]

WHAT! why would that be hidden like that. wow that's a really nice option. Its not quite like the Sturmgrenadiers in Market Garden, its all mp40s. but they do have a MG and its more than 9 guys. thats really neat.

[JasonC]

 

There are way too many SVT-40s in Red Thunder.  It was a 1941 weapon, most of them actually made prewar and the large plants switched away from them by the end of the spring of 1942.  With other prewar SVT-38s added, there were only 1.67 million Russian semi autos made through the end of the war.  In comparison, there were 8 million SMGs (6 million PPsH and 2 million PPS-43) and over 20 million Mosin Nagants (wartime production 17.5 million, but also millions on hand prewar.  Total production of Mosins back to pre WW I era is 37 million rifles, making it the most common firearm in history by a long way).

Most of the SVTs were fielded in the prewar army or in the mobilization waves that trained during 1941 and reached the front by December.  Production was less in 1942 (the large plants all switched to simpler Mosin production to maximize output in terms of weapon count) and field losses very high, far higher for small arms for the Russians, through the fall of 1942, than at any other time for them, or for any other army in history.  There therefore would not have been many left even in mid 1943, let along mid 1944 at the time of  Bagration.  Low level production was not replacing losses, it was only allowing continued use in specialized roles like designated marksman and sniper rifles.  Production ceased completely in January 1945.

As a whole war average, out of 100 men equipped with small arms only 5 or 6 would have SVTs, 28 or so would have SMGs, and 67 would have Mosins.  And that mix would be weighted more heavily away from the SVTs and toward the SMGs in the summer of 1944.  The notion that the Bagration era force would have any increased quantity of semi autos as a late war upgunning development is just completely wrong.  Upgunning instead took the form of more LMGs per company and especially many more SMGs, including full SMG formations (in the mech arm especially), and more SMGs per platoon in the line rifle formations.

[akd]

They are from a special division that was involved in Bagration, the 78 "sturm" division.

No, Heer Sturm-Artillerie Brigades were independent, battalion-sized units, like Heer Sturmgeschutz Battalions and Brigades.  I believe 3 were present in the East at the start of Bagration.

[AttorneyAtWar]

No, Heer Sturm-Artillerie Brigades were independent, battalion-sized units, like Heer Sturmgeschutz Battalions and Brigades.  I believe 3 were present in the East at the start of Bagration.

Whoops! I will edit my post, sorry about that.

[LukeFF]

(edit) looked it up, factory output of the SVT actually diminished after 42 so i was wrong, but output of the various Submachineguns was increased and bacame more important than rifles so the SVT availability is still probably correct given that most Nagants were probably issued to Staff and logistical types not front line soldiers.)

Not quite, in regards to Mosin-Nagants (a Nagant is a revolver ). In 1943 alone, there were more M91/30s built than in all other years of production combined. What did start happening in late 1944 is that the M91/30 started to be replaced by the M44. 

As for the SVT-40, I do think it's represented on the high side in CMRT.  

[Aragorn2002]

I also would like to see more STG-44s in regular units. Historical or not.

[LukeFF]

I also would like to see more STG-44s in regular units. Historical or not.

You know that's not how BFC does things. 

[Aragorn2002]

You know that's not how BFC does things. 

I do. But some divisions, like the 1st (Prussian) infantry division for example, had more STG-44s than most other divisions. It would be nice to simulate that.

[Ts4EVER]

That is true btw, since the 1st Infanterie Division was one of the few units completely re-equipped with them in early 1944. Question is if they were used within RTs time and space scale.

[Aragorn2002]

That is true btw, since the 1st Infanterie Division was one of the few units completely re-equipped with them in early 1944. Question is if they were used within RTs time and space scale.

They recieved 2,400 STG 44s, as recorded in the diary of OKH on June 14th 1944. Not sure whether that means they also actually had them when Bagration began. Army Group North, not Centre btw.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Aragorn2002

[Ts4EVER]

afaik Red Thunder is about Army Group Centre right?

[Aragorn2002]

It is. And that probably explains it.

[JasonC]

History of 1st Infantry division from Jason Pipes, Feldgrau, in relevant part.  Poland, France (lightly engaged), then AG North for Barbarossa and Leningrad fighting. 

But then the continuation -

"until October 1943 when it was seconded to Heeresgruppe Süd as part of XXXXVIII.Panzer-Korps. Here the Division saw heavy action in the battle of Krivoi Rog in the Dnieper campaign, and was later encircled with 1.Panzer-Armee between the Bug and the Dnestr rivers in March 1944. The Division managed to breakout as rear-guard of XLVI.Panzer Corps, suffering heavy casualties. Rested and refitted, the Division was next sent to the Central sector of Heeresgruppe Mitte. Escaping piecemeal from the overwhelming Soviet Summer 1944 offensive, but still relatively intact, it remained with what was left of Heeresgruppe Mitte, later ending the war in early 1945 fighting in it's native East Prussia."

Thus, 1st Infantry left the AG North sector in the fall of 1943, foguht on that part of the front until March 1944, when it was essentially destroyed.  

It was rebuilt from the cadre that escaped encirclement at the end of that period, to be thrown in to AG Center for the Bagration fight, which it ran from in pieces.

2400 MP44s would not fully replace rifles, if it was brought up to strength in the rebuild between March and June.  It was a large 3 regiment pattern infantry division, which Pipes still showing 2 grenadier and 1 fusilier regiments in its 1944 TOE, plus a divisional recon battalion (fusiliers) and a pioneer battalion, as well as the usual panzerjaegers.  This would mean up to 11 infantry type battalions.  2400 rifles won't fully equip 11 battalions with an MP44 for every rifleman.

Edited January 9, 2016 by JasonC

[Aragorn2002]

Thanks, didn't know that. Interesting.

[Ts4EVER]

Interesting. I suppose then that they used a Sturmzug system similar to the Volksgrenadier Divisions?

[Ts4EVER]

About the SVT40, it is true that these weapons mostly saw use in 1941 and 1942. There are some curious exceptions though. For one, it appears they were still issued in significant numbers to Marines and Paratroopers. They also show up en masse in a series of photos of the Soviet controlled Polish Forces in the battle of Lenino (late 1943):

It is possible that these photos were staged for propaganda to insinuate that the Russian allied nations were well equipped by them, but it is interesting nonetheless.

 

[Melchior]

Marines and Paratroopers are usually designated Shock Troops, who are expected take more initiative (get into and win more fights) and have to be a little more self sufficient than the average army grunt. The US Marines for example often took extra liberties with machine guns in Platoon and Company ToEs. 

Edited January 11, 2016 by CaptHawkeye

[JoMac]

I also think there are far to many SVT-40s in CM:RT, and prefer the way CM:BB had it...Basically, the average squad having 4-5 Mosin Rifles, an SVT, 2-3 SMGs, and LMG.

I tried using the 'Poor' instead of 'Typical' and still can't tell the difference... 

Joe

[LukeFF]

Marines and Paratroopers are usually designated Shock Troops, who are expected take more initiative (get into and win more fights) and have to be a little more self sufficient than the average army grunt. The US Marines for example often took extra liberties with machine guns in Platoon and Company ToEs. 

Soviet Marines = sailors who have been given a rifle. They were hardly the same thing as US Marines.

[Melchior]

They conducted something like 100 landings during the war. They also pulled double duty as Paratroopers. They weren't as big as the US Marine Corp sure but they certainly did not lack an offensive spirit. 

[JasonC]

LukeFF is more right on this one.  Soviet Naval Infantry was mostly a matter of releasing men drafted for the navy to serve in a ground role because there wasn't enough sea fighting going on to justify a massive commitment of manpower to the navy proper.  There were a few prewar formations - one brigade in Leningrad, a few regiments later - that were more like elite marines, but they did not form the bulk of the naval infantry.  Only about 10 battalions worth out of something like 40 brigades in all, fit that description.

As for the paratroopers, they were picked men and excellent potential material, trained etc, but suffered from being underarmed, rather than having the best of everything.  Basically the paratroop formations were light infantry with very minimal artillery support, not really heavily armed enough to stand in the line for long as a rifle formation.  They got fire brigade, reserve roles in the ground fighting, sometimes being airlifted to a threatened sector.  A few battalion to brigade sized drops supported infiltration and raid tactics by ski brigades, horse cavalry, and partisans in the winter in the northern areas.  The famous failed landings during the Dnepr crossings were only about a single division's worth of men.

What mostly happened to them, though, was that a wave of paratroop formations would be created (10 divisions worth at a time), wouldn't have actual airborne employment, and before being thrown into the ground battle they'd get redesignated as guards rifle divisions and topped off with the artillery and medium mortars they needed to fight in the line, then got added to combined arms armies wherever the fight was thickest.  3 of the divisions that fought in Stalingrad were former airborne formations, for example.  A few of them fought in this manner before such a redesignation - the airborne division at Ponyri in the Kursk battle, for example.

Neither was a true elite of the Soviet ground forces.  In terms of being overequipped as well as having select manpower.  Overequipped actually describes the mechanized component of the army instead, from midwar on at least.  Guards formations in all branches won that designation in action and got somewhat more equipment and better replacements than others, but weren't selected enough to be an elite, and had loss rates too high to remain full of veterans (though they all did have veteran cadre).  

The other selected component of the Soviet infantry arm was the foot recon guys in the rifle armies.  These were very small groups of picked men and veterans, and distinct from the motorcycle recon within the mechanized portion.  They had night infiltration and intel gathering as their normal missions, plus pathfinding in some assaults.  They were the forerunners of the post war Spetznaz - not the wartime airborne.  (Though the two roles did merge somewhat, in the postwar period).