Do Target Arcs & Hide = Ambush?

[akd]

Pretty sure this doesn't work at longer ranges, so is likely tied to fire discipline while hiding, rather than a behavior triggered by the combination of Target Arc + Hide.

[Vinnart]

Range does not seem to have any effect on whether it works or not. I did this last night with a HMG team I did not want to open up with till the infantry got closer so I set an arc. There were some arty spotting rounds coming in so I put them on hide too. As soon as the  HMG spotted the enemy with in the arc my MG opened up. The only restriction is terrain where they cannot see from prone such as not being able to look out a window when lying on the floor. What I notice with ambushes with target arc + hide in difference is in spotting time, and reaction time. With spotting while hiding only one, two, or NO guys are popping their head up to look around at any given moment. Sometimes the guy looking around happens to be looking in the right direction of the enemy that enters the arc and he will begin firing as quickly as if there was no HIDE order, and just the arc. The other difference is reaction time of the rest of the guys hiding vs not hiding. When hiding it takes the rest of the squad a moment to snap out of hiding, and start firing once the first guy already opened up. When they are not hiding all will spot and engage more quickly. So there really are two types of AMBUSHES you can do. Target arc alone. or + Hide. Each has their pros and cons. Choosing which one to do depends on circumstances, and terrain whether hide + arc will work well at all. It is another one of those nuances the game has with improvement of the AI sometime after 3.0. Having it work much more properly now gives more flexibility in being able to adapt to situations much better. At least now they will stop hiding to engage with in the arc where before they were too reluctant to. Sometimes I think arc alone is better, and sometimes I like it better with hide for better concealment and incoming artillery readiness. All depends on situation, and terrain.

To be honest with it working much better now I do not see the need for a dedicated ambush command as any priority IMO.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Vinnart

[womble]

 

I removed the the OpFor Target Arc and ran it again at 95 meters.  The OpFor did not shoot.

 

 

Now that is a surprise. Bears further testing, I think, to find the parameters.

[Baneman]

Had this happen to me in a turn I watched last night ( playtest of sfhand's big Operation/Battle ).

 

Stuart moved into the Cover Armor arc of a Hiding Panzerschreck team ( both had "Hiding" in their green text at the time ).

They spotted it, and fired - range was approx. 170m.

 

Have personally never seen this occur before, so it must have been tweaked in patch/version upgrade.

Sweet.

[General Jack Ripper]

Once upon a time, Hide + Target Arc didn't work, and I was sad. Now it does work, and I'm glad.

End of story.

[A Canadian Cat]

I don't know if things have really changed guys.  I do not remember reading anything about changes in this area.

 

To refer to @SLIM's post I think it might be more of "Once upon a time, Hide  + Target Arc got my guys killed and I was sad.  I tried again one more time and this time it worked and I was glad"  

 

In other words it could just be you had a sucky experience with your sample size of one or two a few years ago and now you have had a good experience with a sample size of one or two today. Nothing has really changed it was just luck of the draw.

 

Of course that's just my impression.  Someone would have to create a test with 1.0 and port it to 3.11 and run both of them a crap load of times to tell for sure.  That is certainly not going to be me - sorry

[Baneman]

I don't know if things have really changed guys.  I do not remember reading anything about changes in this area.

 

To refer to @SLIM's post I think it might be more of "Once upon a time, Hide  + Target Arc got my guys killed and I was sad.  I tried again one more time and this time it worked and I was glad"

 

In other words it could just be you had a sucky experience with your sample size of one or two a few years ago and now you have had a good experience with a sample size of one or two today. Nothing has really changed it was just luck of the draw.

 

Of course that's just my impression.  Someone would have to create a test with 1.0 and port it to 3.11 and run both of them a crap load of times to tell for sure.  That is certainly not going to be me - sorry

 

Entirely possible - when the general perceived idea was "Hiding troops see nowt", everyone changed their playstyle

So it could well be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

Maybe later Steve will pop in to this thread and tell us how they've been secretly laughing at us for years

[General Jack Ripper]

Maybe later Steve will pop in to this thread and tell us how they've been secretly laughing at us for years

 

I certainly wouldn't rule that out.

[MOS:96B2P]

I finally got back around to running a few more experiments at longer range with Target Arcs & the Hide command.  Below are the screenshots of US teams hiding with a Target Arc.  When OpFor teams enter the Target Arc the US teams un-hid on their own and opened fire. (Approximately 300 meter Target Arc)

 

A second test with the OpFor walking in from 1000 meters.  The US teams held fire until the OpFor was inside the approximately 200 meter Target Arcs, then un-hid and fired.

 

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yes, I've been using this quite a lot recently

[Bulletpoint]

I finally got back around to running a few more experiments at longer range with Target Arcs & the Hide command.  Below are the screenshots of US teams hiding with a Target Arc. 

 

 

 

I don't think that's a sound contact. It's just a general contact icon, which means your guys noticed movement in that area, but don't currently have a visual on the enemy unit. Sound contacts look the same, but appear much closer, when there's no LOS, in my experience.

[womble]

There is no distinction between the two. "Sound contact" is what "?" icons were called in CMx1, and the nomenclature has stuck. "?" icons in CMx2 are tentative contacts which could be from sound or fleeting/indistinct/indirect visual observation. If the icon is infantry, close and obviously in defilade from any potential observing units, it's probably down to sound, yes. Vehicles can be heard from much further away, as can infantry who fire their weapons.

[MOS:96B2P]

I don't think that's a sound contact. It's just a general contact icon, which means your guys noticed movement in that area, but don't currently have a visual on the enemy unit. Sound contacts look the same, but appear much closer, when there's no LOS, in my experience.

There is no distinction between the two. "Sound contact" is what "?" icons were called in CMx1, and the nomenclature has stuck. "?" icons in CMx2 are tentative contacts which could be from sound or fleeting/indistinct/indirect visual observation. If the icon is infantry, close and obviously in defilade from any potential observing units, it's probably down to sound, yes. Vehicles can be heard from much further away, as can infantry who fire their weapons.

I have gotten into the habit (probably bad) of referring to all "?" icons as sound contacts.  Tentative contact is a more accurate term and I will attempt to use that in the future. 

[Bulletpoint]

 

I have gotten into the habit (probably bad) of referring to all "?" icons as sound contacts.  Tentative contact is a more accurate term and I will attempt to use that in the future. 

I just call them "contact markers"  Didn't intend to derail your thorough post. carry on...