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Tank Commanders - buttoned up or out and spotting?


Tux
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Now that we're in the 21st Century, am I better off unbuttoning TCs in order to increase their awareness or leaving them locked up so they can use their fancy detection equipment? Presumably the latter in low-light conditions, at least? Is it different for US/UKR/RUS tanks?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Tux

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Now that we're in the 21st Century, am I better off unbuttoning TCs in order to increase their awareness or leaving them locked up so they can use their fancy detection equipment? Presumably the latter in low-light conditions, at least? Is it different for US/UKR/RUS tanks?

Thanks in advance for the help.

Tux

 

Traditionally Soviets/Russians have been very conservative in using buttoned down tactics, largely for the fear chemical/nuclear weapon usage and associated decompression. This was definitely a limiting factor for them as their TC Sights were not nearly as good as those on advanced western tanks. Not sure what the case is now, since bio-chemical/nuclear threat is diminished and modern Russian TC Sights are much better now...

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I dunno, depends on circonstances. When fighting m1s with no panoramic sight for the commander (T-90A and t-72 ) I prefer to unbutton since when buttonned they are at great disavantage (especially the T-90A) against the M-1 for spotting and getting the first shot). Must be used in a timely matter)

Edited by antaress73
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Would the same rule(s) of thumb be true when using other AFVs as well? For example, when using BMPs or Strykers, are their sensor suites still the way to go? Where is the 'line' in terms of vehicle classes which carry the right equivalent to justify keeping heads down?

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Would the same rule(s) of thumb be true when using other AFVs as well? For example, when using BMPs or Strykers, are their sensor suites still the way to go? Where is the 'line' in terms of vehicle classes which carry the right equivalent to justify keeping heads down?

 

A list of vehicles that should always spot better while buttoned (at least to the front of the vehicle) was compiled by a kindly dude for internal use which I can probably post here now:

M1A2

T-90AM

BM Oplot

M2A3

M3A3

M7A3

Khrizantema

Tunguska

There are other vehicles for which it is not clear-cut or may be circumstantial with regards to day/night.

Edited by Vanir Ausf B
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Yeah but it seems to spot better buttonned than the T-90A.. Which is strange since the T-90A commander's cupola has its own sight (but not Panoramic) where the T-72 doesnt. Maybe because thé gunner's sight and thermals on the T-72 are newer and much better. The T-72 is also quicker on the draw because of the much better FCS (all digital, thanks Thales)

Edited by antaress73
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There was a video somewhere of a Russian tank testing Arena active protection. Jeez, it was like an airburst artillery round going off eight feet from your tank. It actually rocked the tank back on its suspension. it might take an exposed commander's head clean off. Trophy activation is less violent but nothing I want to happen six feet from my head. Earlier generation Russian-made equipment like T64 and BRDM-2 have a big situational awareness penalty when buttoned. but there's a lot of scoped rifles on the CM battlefield just waiting to take the commander out.

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A list of vehicles that should always spot better while buttoned (at least to the front of the vehicle) was compiled by a kindly dude for internal use which I can probably post here now:M1A2T-90AMBM OplotM2A3M3A3M7A3KhrizantemaTunguskaThere are other vehicles for which it is not clear-cut or may be circumstantial with regards to day/night.

Even more useful than anything I was hoping for, thanks! At night or in low-light conditions then I guess I just favour IR/night vision where possible.

I had noticed that BMPs seem slow to spot when buttoned. I suppose they're already vulnerable enough in battle that the crew can't reasonably complain if I ask them to stick their head out of the top as well!

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I had noticed that BMPs seem slow to spot when buttoned. I suppose they're already vulnerable enough in battle that the crew can't reasonably complain if I ask them to stick their head out of the top as well!

I've noticed that a lot of vehicles and infantry seem to have a hard time spotting the enemy. I'm mainly talking about units equipped with thermal imaging devices. Thermal imaging devices should greatly enhance target acquisition night or day. I've only had CMBS a few days so I haven't dug too deep into it yet, but it only took me a few minutes to notice the difficulty acquiring targets with modern fire control systems and thermal imaging.

 

I'll use the BM Oplot for example, which I've just started experimenting with. The PTT-2 TIS allegedly has a detection range of 8000m. I'm having trouble seeing enemy vehicles 1000m away in sparse trees until they move or after they've fired. If they can see me and engage me, I should be able to see something hot in the trees with an advanced TIS such as the PTT-2. Thankfully the Varta and Zaslon systems seem to work very well or I'd be dead before target acquisition.

 

US infantry equipped with AN/PAS-13 should at least be able to see *some* enemy infantry at ranges <1000m, especially if they are themselves being engaged by that same enemy. Night and day. I'm just looking for enough information to know that something hot is hiding in that treeline, not a full identification of a unit. If you scan an area where a squad is hiding long enough with a thermal imaging device, you'll eventually see a hot spot when somebody pokes their head around a tree or moves their arm to scratch their forehead. 

 

Anyone else noticed the same thing?

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I have noticed the BMP-3 has some serious spotting issues as well, I am surprised the thermal isn't helping it at all.

BMP-3 or BMP-3M? The BMP-3M has a thermal sight for the gunner (Vesna-K), the BMP-3 does not.

The way thermal imaging systems work in-game is somewhat abstracted. If thermal sights worked the same in the game as they do in reality it would mean that everything in LOS would be spotted almost instantly, 100% of the time. It's implementation in Black Sea functions as a spotting bonus with the added ability to see through normal smoke and be less affected by fog and bad weather in general.

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Thermal isn't magic. A lot of the smaller or Russian stuff has issues with spotting while moving (basically maintaining resolution, it blurs out) and thermal still struggles with LOS and concealment like vegetation.

The 8000 meters claims are howling open desert sort environment and should not be seen as an honest capability.

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It is a very potent tool. But it is not the mystic see all targets out to 8 km no matter what tool.

 

The way it was described to us was more along the lines of a "if it's in LOS it will be spotted pretty quick" tool. I don't think anyone ever suggested that it could see through solid objects.

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As a test put a vehicle on a map , surround it with friendly units then play it as a scenario in 'Iron' mode. In Iron mode when you select a unit you can only see what they see - friendly as well as enemy. You might be a bit surprised to see a large percentage of your comrades around your vehicle disappear entirely or turn into (?) question mark icons. Infantry on the ground basically see everything, different classes of vehicles see less-and-less-and-less.

 

This isn't some mere abstracted affect of the game. I recall Tiger I was having trouble spotting during Beta testing when it was discovered the (invisible) commander was sitting sideways in his seat so his optics weren't in front of him! There's a LOT going on under the hood we barely suspect.

Edited by MikeyD
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The way thermal imaging systems work in-game is somewhat abstracted. If thermal sights worked the same in the game as they do in reality it would mean that everything in LOS would be spotted almost instantly, 100% of the time. It's implementation in Black Sea functions as a spotting bonus with the added ability to see through normal smoke and be less affected by fog and bad weather in general.

I'm totally in agreement that you wouldn't want thermals in game to reveal everything and there has to be some abstraction. Fog of war is what makes games like this interesting and it would really throw off playability and balance if a unit with thermals could see everything all the time. Right now though it seems the spotting bonus works a heck of a lot better for the computer enemy than it does for the player. Four BM Oplot, three BTR-4E, a dismounted Corsar and a dismounted Skif all looking at a treeline 1000m away and nobody saw anything until the Skif got raked by 30mm fire and BTR's started blowing up.

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The way it was described to us was more along the lines of a "if it's in LOS it will be spotted pretty quick" tool. I don't think anyone ever suggested that it could see through solid objects.

 

LOS is more complicated than it looks.  There's a lot of random little things that get in the way (thick brush is the worst imo), microterrain and the like.  Having sat behind pretty good thermals its still surprising how easy it is for a well managed armored vehicle to stay out of sight until it's too late.  Also worth remembering that the actual "seen" thermal FOV isn't that great.  So it's less there's this big frontal FOV in which all is seen at once, there's little narrow wedges of spotting sweeping an area that's often full of full positives, or sometimes fleeting views of targets.

 

Not only that but yo get into the weirdness of thermal crossover, weather, and the like.

 

It's so much better than searching with your MK-1 eyeball, but it is not a perfect solution. 

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