Are GOLIATHS ever going to make the lineup?

[Tempestzzzz]

Subject says it all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_tracked_mine

[MikeyD]

I have a vague (and distant) recollection of Steve once commenting that Goliath played almost no role in the fighting. The Brits captured great stockpiles of them - which means that great stockpiles of them went unused. One could make a better argument they should show up in CMFI, the German did use them at Anzio. This vague recollection of mine dates all the way back to CMBO days, I think

[db_zero]

I agree historically Goliaths didn't play a big role in WW2. I would also argue that perhaps they were far too ahead of their time considering the role IED's, drones and soon to be robotics play in modern warfare.

The US Navy has just deployed a laser armed warship. Back in the 80's Reagan's Star Wars was the talk of the town.

The Germans for better or worse were ahead of their time. Jets, guided missiles, assault rifles, Goliaths.

Some were hits at the time. Some were misses at the time, but looking back they were ahead of their time.

[General Jack Ripper]

I think maybe if BFC decide to do a "Weird and Wunderwaffe" vehicle pack, say after CMBN is completely finished, we might see some stuff like this.

I would certainly like a "Space Lobsters of DOOM" module, sort of on the line of the giant ant maps for C&C Red Alert. Just because we're playing a very serious wargame, doesn't mean we can't be a bit silly once in a while.

[YankeeDog]

Some were hits at the time. Some were misses at the time, but looking back they were ahead of their time.

In some ways yes, in some ways no.

It's true that some weapons systems the Third Reich deployed were way ahead of their time. The most remarkable example IMHO is the long-range ballistic missile; the V-2.

But in other areas they were woefully behind the Allies. The Atomic Bomb is the most obvious example, but there are many others.

Radar is a big one. While in certain specific areas the Germans implemented some remarkable uses of Radar technology, in general Allies did far more with radar technology (and did so earlier) than the Germans ever achieved. Aircraft-mounted systems so sensitive they could detect the periscope or schnorkel of submerged submarine. Long-range ground/ship systems compact enough to mount in a small ship such as a submarine, or transport on trucks (the latter leads to the first ground-based counter-mortar detection systems, deployed in on a limited basis in 1945). And let's not forget the VT fuse. Had the invasion of Japan happened, the U.S. was preparing to deploy what would of been the first AWACS system in late 1945.

And then there's amphibious warfare, an entire family of weapons, craft, and doctrine that went on to become a very important element of the of the 20th Century Cold War "Limited Wars." Germany barely dipped its toe into this pool, and never deployed anything comparable to the LCVP, the LCM, the LST, the LVT, etc.

The Handie-Talkie, the Aircraft Carrier, the Intercontinental Bomber, Computers... I could go on.

With regard to the Goliath specifically, the Germans weren't really ahead of the Allies at all. The Soviets experimented with "Teletanks" in 1939 and 1940, and the British also developed a "Mobile Land Mine" aka "Beetle" system in 1940, before the Germans ever deployed the Goliath. Further, the Soviet and British designs were arguably more advanced than the Goliath -- Soviet Teletanks were radio-guided and therefore not susceptible to cutting of the command wire as the Goliath was, and the British Beetle was amphibious.

Both the Soviets and the British concluded that these systems were not useful enough in combat to merit further development and deployment. History suggests the Germans probably should have come to the same conclusion regarding the Goliath.

[womble]

Spot on, YD. The Germans were barely, if at all, more advanced in their development of the jet engine too; with a little more institutional vision, the RAF could have had jets fighting off the Luftwaffe in the Battle of Britain.

And the US were the first to issue semi-automatic rifles as standard to their infantry. There are probably more myths of German materiel superiority than there are concrete examples.

[postfux123]

History suggests the Germans probably should have come to the same conclusion regarding the Goliath.

Nice point.

Always wondered how such smart people could have lost the war.

[General Jack Ripper]

Always wondered how such smart people could have lost the war.

Simple, World War Two wasn't a battle of technology, it was a battle of production. The United States and the Soviet Union built more weapons faster than they could be destroyed.

Take a look at the battle of the Atlantic, the simple answer to the Uboat threat was to build more ships than the Germans could sink. It got to the point where a new Liberty Ship was rolling off the production lines every single day. While a Uboat might spend two or three weeks at sea and sink five or six ships, by the time he got back to base the losses had already been replaced.

The same is true for tanks, with about 50,000 Sherman tanks being built during the war. We simply built tanks faster than the Germans could destroy them.

[postfux123]

I think submarines were one of the smarter moves of Germany regarding effort and effect. They fell behind technological and had a huge problem with sigint but stragetic it was way smarter than building very modern and expensive battleships for instance. Submarines had the potential to partially balance allied production.

One might wonder on the other hand why later in the war Germany build an assortment of badass tanks and another assortment of more economic fighting vehicles while the powerhorse US concentrated on one reliable (but not very badass) tank design with good success and the SU pumped out "junk" with a good gun and sufficient armor. I dont think the Sherman was cannon fodder but a very succesfull tank design (perhaps more so than a Königstiger).

What I wanted to say is that good engineering alone does not mean you are smart or rather pull my hat to YankeeDog for having done this already in style.

[Michael Emrys]

Simple, World War Two wasn't a battle of technology, it was a battle of production. The United States and the Soviet Union built more weapons faster than they could be destroyed.

Take a look at the battle of the Atlantic, the simple answer to the Uboat threat was to build more ships than the Germans could sink. It got to the point where a new Liberty Ship was rolling off the production lines every single day. While a Uboat might spend two or three weeks at sea and sink five or six ships, by the time he got back to base the losses had already been replaced.

Whoa there, Trigger! That's far from being the whole story. The point that you are describing—somewhere around the middle of 1943—was not reached until the Allies developed weapons and tactics that allowed them to successfully combat the U-boats and ultimately drive the survivors off the primary sea lanes and eventually away from almost anywhere that Allied merchant shipping needed to go. In other words, it wasn't until the U-boat threat had been neutralized that the Allies were finally able to outproduce their losses.

The same is true for tanks, with about 50,000 Sherman tanks being built during the war. We simply built tanks faster than the Germans could destroy them.

Again, the main reason that the Allies could produce more tanks (and crews, let's not forget them) is because they were able to focus many multiple weapon systems to prevent the Germans from freely exercising their full AT capability. It's kind of hard to shoot up a tank if your ATG has just been shelled or bombed or your tank or TD has run out of gas ten clicks from the battlefield. Or if your factories have been bombed to the point where they are no longer operating at full efficiency.

Yes, the Allies produced entire mountain ranges of the stuff that armies require, but none of it would have amounted to a hill of beans if they could not also produce soldiers, sailors, and airmen capable of taking all that stuff and using it effectively.

Michael

[poesel]

There was a German aircraft carrier but it was scrapped before the war before it was complete (IIRC). Even Hitler knew it would be useless.

Btw if the Germans had been any smart they hadn't started the war.

[Trooper117]

Where is this thread going?

1. To the dogs?

2. To the 'my army is bigger than your army' ?

3. To the 'Great WWII conspiracy theory group'?

4. All of the above?

[postfux123]

There was a German aircraft carrier but it was scrapped before the war before it was complete (IIRC). Even Hitler knew it would be useless.

Btw if the Germans had been any smart they hadn't started the war.

You do not take into account it was an preemptive strike.

Where is this thread going?

1. To the dogs?

2. To the 'my army is bigger than your army' ?

3. To the 'Great WWII conspiracy theory group'?

4. All of the above?

I have a preference for # 3

[Doodlebug]

Where is this thread going?

1. To the dogs?

2. To the 'my army is bigger than your army' ?

3. To the 'Great WWII conspiracy theory group'?

4. All of the above?

To go back to the original posted photograph. Late war/post war captured German equipment haul? I recognise a Kubelwagen when I see one but what's the hemispherical contraption behind them, a dissembled radar dish?

[Sequoia]

I think that's part of one of the flying saucers they used to escape to the moon and set up their secret base.

[Doodlebug]

I think that's part of one of the flying saucers they used to escape to the moon and set up their secret base.

You could well be onto something there...

[Tempestzzzz]

"what's the hemispherical contraption behind them, a dissembled radar dish?"

Yup- a disassembled Wurzberg dish

[John Kettler]

Doodlebug (which just happens to be a moniker for the V-1),

I'd love to know what that cart is in the background just above the head of the rightmost, as we view the image) soldier in the pic? My current best guess is some sort of gun barrel carrier.

Tempestzzzz,

I've known about the Goliath since I was a kid, but I had zero idea that it carried a 60 kg charge of explosives. No wonder one of the applications was bridge destruction!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Tempestzzzz]

John my BEST guess is-and it took awhile looking at searchlight and radar trailers is that it is a

*drumroll*

Trailer for a FLAK range finder-with the optics removed.

eine German Telemeter KDO Mod.40 w/Sd.Anh 52 Trailer (Kommandogerat 40).

Notice it has 'leaf platforms folded up. That's what gave it away. Searchlight and radar trailers don't have this.

http://thegreatcanadianmodelbuilderswebpage.blogspot.com/2012/03/german-telemeter-kdo-mod40-wsdanh-52.html

Modeling forum has a picture of an actual one and various angles on the models.

http://www.militarymodelling.com/forums/postings.asp?th=63623

I know the Germans used GOLIATHS in Warsaw to take out buildings containing Poles fighting them during the uprising. Also used the BORGWARD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borgward_IV

.

[John Kettler]

Tempestzzzz,

Outstanding detective work! Not only a piece of gear new to me, but a really nice kit (used to build Tamiya 1:35 long ago and was last really aware of the scene circa early 90s). I deduce from the word "telemeter" that the device is automatically sending the information generated to the guns.

Dad built a then-black optical augmentation system--scanning laser into the scope=huge optical reflection=detection=CBU or a 3000-pound bomb with fuze extender--called PAVE FIRE III for finding and killing optically directed flak in the DMZ during the Vietnam War. His particular quarry was the PUAZO-6/60, which was the optical director for the havoc wreaking 57 mm S-60 AAG. The best pilots and WSOs in the Air Force flew F-4Ds in this deadly duel and had the valor awards and promotions to prove it! The pod was a converted SUU-16 Vulcan cannon pod carried on the centerline station, in a configuration rather male anatomical.

PUAZO family

http://jedsite.info/artillery-papa/papa/puazo_series/puazo-series.html

PUAZO-6/60

Note the common design elements between the German WW II Gerat and this one.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a9/PUAZO-6-60_fire_control_computer_at_the_Muzeum_Polskiej_Techniki_Wojskowej_in_Warsaw_(1).JPG

Regards,

John Kettler