Seeing muzzle flashes without getting a contact

[Bulletpoint]

Just wondering how it can be that I, the player, can see muzzle flashes from a building, without any of my troops getting even a contact for that building.

Shouldn't it be that either, you don't see anything, you just get shot at from some unknown location, or that some of your guys spot the muzzle flashes in the windows, and then know some enemy has to be there, even without spotting any of the enemy soldiers?

I would prefer the first version. Feels a bit gamey to pause the "movie" and look for flashes, then area firing back at that location.

Also, WW2 weapons don't even produce a muzzle flash in real life, isn't that correct? Unless firing at night maybe..

[YankeeDog]

Just wondering how it can be that I, the player, can see muzzle flashes from a building, without any of my troops getting even a contact for that building.

Shouldn't it be that either, you don't see anything, you just get shot at from some unknown location, or that some of your guys spot the muzzle flashes in the windows, and then know some enemy has to be there, even without spotting any of the enemy soldiers?

I would prefer the first version. Feels a bit gamey to pause the "movie" and look for flashes, then area firing back at that location.

Also, WW2 weapons don't even produce a muzzle flash in real life, isn't that correct? Unless firing at night maybe..

Muzzle flash varies a lot from weapon to weapon. It mostly comes down to how completely the powder burns in the chamber and barrel, and how much burning powder escapes the muzzle. In general, the amount of flash from modern firearms is pretty modest, but some weapons are known to have a larger than usual muzzle flash -- an example would be the FG42.

How visible any muzzle flash is also depends a lot on ambient light conditions in the vicinity of the weapon. Under direct, bright sunlight, very few modern small arms produce much in the way of discernable flash. But it doesn't take much to make the flash visible -- even just the shadows of trees or buildings can reduce the ambient light level enough to make the muzzle flash visible.

It's also important to keep in mind that weapons produce other signs for firing -- often, at least some smoke, and MGs especially will often kick up dirt and produce movement in e.g., leaves and grass close to the muzzle. The game doesn't graphically represent these small details, so you could also interpret the flash as an indication of these other signs.

In regards to visible muzzle flashes in game, IIRC this is intentional design. There are variable levels of spotting in the game; it's not just "nothing" or "spotted". At the intermediate levels of spotting, if you're observant you will see some clues as to where the firing enemy might be before you actually get a "?" spot. For example, you might see part of the tracer arc or the muzzle flash.

[Michael Emrys]

Just wondering how it can be that I, the player, can see muzzle flashes from a building, without any of my troops getting even a contact for that building.

A couple of thoughts: One is that your soldiers might be distracted or with their faces in the dirt/just looking the wrong way and not notice muzzle flashes in one of many possible locations in their environment. But you, with your potentially god-like omniscience of the battlefield are capable of looking everywhere at the critical moment. And if it feels gamy to you to use that information to target area fire, then simply don't do it. Admittedly this can be problematical if you are playing H2H against an opponent whom you can't trust to stick to a house rule on this matter. But in that case, you might consider finding a new opponent. Or just shrug the whole things off as it is relatively minor.

Michael

[Baneman]

...

Also, WW2 weapons don't even produce a muzzle flash in real life, isn't that correct? Unless firing at night maybe..

True in general - but irl, in a building, a room is probably darker than the surroundings, so even if normally not producing a muzzle-flash, a weapon firing is likely to light up a room - causing some form of window-flicker. ( doesn't have to be much - the human eye is good at that sort of thing )

[MisterMark]

I've wondered about this too with unspotted sound contacts. In a WEGO game you, if one of your tanks spontaneously seems to explode (due to a hidden ATG) you can rewind and scroll around the battlefield and manually locate the gun from it's sound signature with enough searching.

My question... is this standard practice for most and how 'gamey' do PBEM players think this is?

Thank you,

Mark

[sburke]

I've wondered about this too with unspotted sound contacts. In a WEGO game you, if one of your tanks spontaneously seems to explode (due to a hidden ATG) you can rewind and scroll around the battlefield and manually locate the gun from it's sound signature with enough searching.

My question... is this standard practice for most and how 'gamey' do PBEM players think this is?

Thank you,

Mark

For me it depends, were there any units near enough they would have heard anything? If so it makes sense, but hunting all over a map for the sounds of mortars regardless of proximity of any units... gamey. Hearing a fence get crushed then searching the entire map...kind of gamey.

[Bulletpoint]

A couple of thoughts: One is that your soldiers might be distracted or with their faces in the dirt/just looking the wrong way and not notice muzzle flashes in one of many possible locations in their environment. But you, with your potentially god-like omniscience of the battlefield are capable of looking everywhere at the critical moment.

But the thing is: AFAIK the godlike player is only able to see flashes IF some of his troops see them.

If a trooper saw flashes, why doesn't that unit assume there is a contact at the location?

[postfux123]

Always wondered how spotting of dust is working now but am too lazy to find out myself. In CMx1 dust always got spotted if i remember right. Has this been changed?

Sorry for beeing off topic, but this just came to my mind.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In CMx1 dust always got spotted if i remember right. Has this been changed?

Depends on the source of the dust. For dust kicked up by units in CMx2 from movement or firing, it is tied to spotting the unit. You have to spot the unit to see the dust. Dust -- and smoke -- caused by artillery is always visible.

[Michael Emrys]

But the thing is: AFAIK the godlike player is only able to see flashes IF some of his troops see them.

I don't know if that is true and I certainly wouldn't assume it until it has been proven.

Michael

[LukeFF]

Also, WW2 weapons don't even produce a muzzle flash in real life, isn't that correct? Unless firing at night maybe..

Highly variable (not every shot in those videos produces a flash), but otherwise yes, WWII-era weapons will produce a muzzle flash.

[YankeeDog]

Highly variable (not every shot in those videos produces a flash), but otherwise yes, WWII-era weapons will produce a muzzle flash.

Chances are, every shot in those videos is producing a flash, but the camera isn't always catching it.

Specifics depend on what kind of camera was used and how it was set up, but on typical settings what a digital video camera is doing is capturing 30fps, with each image having an exposure time of 1/15 second. So there's an approximately .067 second time gap between each frame that the camera does not capture.

For most types of action, this doesn't matter and the visual impression is of continuous motion. But extremely fast, brief phenomenon like muzzle flashes can fall "between the cracks" of the frames and therefore if the timing is right won't appear in the video at all.

[slysniper]

But the thing is: AFAIK the godlike player is only able to see flashes IF some of his troops see them.

If a trooper saw flashes, why doesn't that unit assume there is a contact at the location?

I agree, I will not say I have proven it, but I find the game will on many items not show contact when you are in the overall mode. But if you go through each unit, you can always find a unit with the visual as to what has been seen or action taken.

Where I notice it the most is at times I notice my troops firing on a enemy unit that I cannot see when in overall visual mode. But click through the units and the one firing has visual and you can see the enemy unit.

So, I bet some unit can see the flashes. I just dont think the spotting indicators and the fog of war built into the game is a perfect science and as pointed out there is bigger fog of war issues than spotting muzzle flashes and not having the spotting unit clearly indicating it.

[A Canadian Cat]

I am also convinced that there are more subtle things going on. I have seen on occasion my men firing on what I think is nothing at all. Clearly they have seen something. Invariably a few moments later a contact appears.