Peshmerga CA vs ISIS M1M Abrams!

[John Kettler]

The Peshmerga, the Kurd's fearsome army, have been kicking butt in their neck of the woods, recently having also been joined by a loves battle Shiite Muslim militia. There have been discussions here, together with disturbing pics, of all the toys ISIS captured via Iraqi Army abandonment. Part of the that haul consisted of some ex-Iraqi Army M1Ms, special versions of the M1 specifically configured for and provided to the Iraqi Army by the US. The US expended an enormous amount of, well, everything, to get those crews properly trained and equipped, together with supplying ~29,000 rounds of main gun ammo. Be that as it may, ISIS brought one of these monsters out to play in Kurdistan. Exact location not given.

Judging from the description of events provided me by spook contacts, ISIS was using the beast, sans infantry support, as its own army. Bad call. The tank, presumably in a Kurd village, was waylaid by a Peshmerga RPG man. He didn't bother trying to kill the tank in the usual way. Instead, he popped out of cover, somehow got himself so that he was hanging one handed from next to the cannon's muzzle, with his RPG in the other hand. He then, while dangling from one arm, takes the RPG, shoves the business end down the muzzle and pulls the trigger. Details are a bit hazy, but this extreme bravery killed the main gun and apparently offed the crew--without blowing up the tank! He lived to tell the tale and is undoubtedly THE Peshmerga among the Peshmerga. That's saying a lot, for the Peshmerga, coed soldier (how that must drive the misogynistic jihadists mad) for soldier, are deemed one of the best armies on the planet.

This is how the Peshmerga came to be the owners of the heaviest MG tank in history! Am told it, in conjunction with infantry support to keep away ISIS infantry, has proven most useful in getting rid of stubborn defenders--by coming right through the walls of the stubbornly defended ISIS strongpoints!

Even Hollywood couldn't come up with an action scene to rival the one above. Thought you'd all get a kick out of what may well be the most extraordinary close assault against a tank ever. We talk of initiative in combat. THIS was initiative!

Regards,

John Kettler

[akd]

Oh really. Where is the obligatory ISIS propaganda video of captured, working M1?

[sburke]

Actually did find a shot, granted it is upside down, but that is correctable. Working, nope haven't found anything. And I am pretty sure our guys went looking to kill this thing. If I was ISIS I'd have it parked in a garage somewhere out of sight and I'd be damned if I'd drive it anywhere it would be seen.

http://www.uskowioniran.com/2014/07/islamic-state-captured-m1-abrams-tank.html

Some of the stuff I have seen has suggested that a lot of the material ISIS has captured is in really poor condition. I expect this tank could be made operational, whether they figure out how to use correctly is another question. As to the Peshmerga hanging from the barrel, well I don't usually buy stories that have the only verification as "coming from my spook friends". If it was so secretive seems awfully funny to end up being blasted on a public forum. Wiki leaks we aren't.

[agusto]

ISIS has had several oppertunities to capture M1 tanks. There are quite a few shots of them posing with wrecks:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsP5NQ4CYAA0vst.jpg:large

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=220136&d=1402594655

http://www.longwarjournal.org/assets_c/2014/07/IS-Anbar-Armor-ambush5-3391.php

However i couldnt find any images or videos of working M1 tanks in ISIS hands.

Judging from the description of events provided me by spook contacts, ISIS was using the beast, sans infantry support, as its own army. Bad call. The tank, presumably in a Kurd village, was waylaid by a Peshmerga RPG man. He didn't bother trying to kill the tank in the usual way. Instead, he popped out of cover, somehow got himself so that he was hanging one handed from next to the cannon's muzzle, with his RPG in the other hand. He then, while dangling from one arm, takes the RPG, shoves the business end down the muzzle and pulls the trigger. Details are a bit hazy, but this extreme bravery killed the main gun and apparently offed the crew--without blowing up the tank! He lived to tell the tale and is undoubtedly THE Peshmerga among the Peshmerga. That's saying a lot, for the Peshmerga, coed soldier (how that must drive the misogynistic jihadists mad) for soldier, are deemed one of the best armies on the planet.

This, though, well, what am i supposed to say? I am sorry, John, this sounds too incredible. I am not going to get started on why i find this story to be implausible.

[Wicky]

The usual attention seeking Kettlerian fantasy.

[John Kettler]

Guys,

According to WSJ, ISIS does have working ex-Iraqi M1 tanks. If you don't like my use of the term "spook," how about I replace it with "thoroughly proven military-intelligence sources," which is much more informative and far more specific than the kinds of source attribution used constantly by the media?

http://online.wsj.com/articles/michael-pregent-and-michael-weiss-exploiting-the-isis-vulnerabilities-in-iraq-1407884145

DOD BUZZ talks about US targeting of captured M1s.

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2014/08/08/will-u-s-fighters-hit-u-s-made-tanks-in-iraq/

There's also this site, which speaks directly to the claim ISIS has/had no M1s in combat.

http://www.publicintegrity.org/2014/08/21/15325/us-now-faces-threat-us-made-weapons-iraq

"Michael Pregent, a former U.S. Army officer who speaks Arabic and has worked for the Defense Department in Iraq as a military and political analyst, estimated that the militants have captured up to 60 of the three heaviest pieces of U.S.-built equipment in the Iraqi arsenal — M1 Abrams tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles and M109 self-propelled howitzers.

Pregent, who is now an adjunct lecturer at National Defense University, said some of these weapons were used in attacks on the Kurdish Peshmerga militia forces defending their semi-autonomous region. ISIS’ threat to the Kurdish capital of Erbil triggered the United States’ intervention."

Additionally, you should know that ISIS tried running ads for tank mechanics in Soldier of Fortune magazine and similar. Apparently alerted by US authorities, every pub of this sort now absolutely refuses to take such ads. They weren't all that subtle, though, seeing as how the reply address was in Syria!

If all ISIS has are burnt out tank hulks, then it's reasonable to ask why it needs tank mechanics?

How about a statement from a senior Kurdish official that ISIS is using M1 tanks there?

http://wqad.com/2014/08/09/officials-u-s-airstrikes-pound-isis-militants-firing-at-iraqs-yazidis/

"Militants using U.S.-made weapons

Even as the airstrikes were under way, there was news that ISIS militants captured Iraq’s largest hydroelectric dam, just north of Mosul, Iraq’s second-largest city. According to a senior Kurdish official, the militant fighters have been using U.S.-made weapons seized during fighting from the Iraqi army, including M1 Abrams tanks."

Seems to me we're now down to arguing about what I'll call combat parkour, for want of a better term. There are a fair number of accounts of CAs in which grenades were shoved down tank cannon muzzles, also shown in German infantry training film, so the basic idea isn't all that off conceptually. Since I have no M1 tank or RPG to hand, I'm in no position to evaluate the feasibility of the rest of the story.

If it helps any, the loaded weight of an RPG-7 is 20 pounds. This is per TRADOC Bulletin No. 3, which covers the RPG-7.

http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/row/rpg-7.pdf

That is spot on, in terms of weight, to the US Mi83 Demolition Charge Assembly (Satchel Charge), which is exactly 20 pounds.

http://www.usmcofficer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Engineering-Field-Firing-Exercise.pdf

Given the above, we're now faced with a very determined man, confronting the hated invader of his homeland and powerless against it using his weapon as originally intended. So, can someone burdened with a 20 lb weapon on his shoulder handle the remaining parts of the account? I have only brief experience around an Abrams (a few minutes at the Ft. Benning motor pool while watching a Bradley fire up), but I can certainly envision a situation in which the gun is depressed to engage close targets, thus making it more accessible to the CA move described, but I have no real sense of the spatial relationships involved. Can anyone help?

Wicky,

Unhelpful and nasty as ever. "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Seems Emerson was psychic and anticipated your arrival on the scene!

Regards,

John Kettler

[agusto]

Guys,

According to WSJ, ISIS does have working ex-Iraqi M1 tanks. If you don't like my use of the term "spook," how about I replace it with "thoroughly proven military-intelligence sources," which is much more informative and far more specific than the kinds of source attribution used constantly by the media?

It doesnt really matter what you call it. If you claim that something happened that is extremely unlikely to happen and the only source you can provide is your word, people will have (entirely justified) doubts. Especially if your story constructed in such a way that it is generally impossible to have it independently confirmed because you are the only one having access to whatever source you claim you got the info from.

-the rest-

Despite the whole story maybe beeing within the physical realms of possibility, it just sounds too fantastic for me to believe it if you cant provide better sources than the ones nobody but you has access to. Even in WW2, wich was in every way much, much more intensive than the conflict in Syria and Iraq and accordingly there were much more opprtunities to attack active tanks by shoving explosives down their barrels, accounts of such actions are extremly rare.

[John Kettler]

agusto,

It is extremely unlikely and wholly remarkable, which is why I took the time to share it. Were it feasible, I'd gladly share my sources, whom I'm sure you'd find eminently credible, but their survival (and mine) depends on my discretion. Not over this per se, but about lots of other really sensitive matters which need airing but could trigger fatal backblast if not handled properly. It sounds appalling, but the government (cough Agency) can, has and will whack people for disclosing certain matters. Nor is it above hurting or killing family, either. The objective is not only to deal with the problem child, if you will, but to terrify anyone else contemplating such actions. Snowden is very much in the sights of some people for what he did, as a case in point. See for yourself at the link below what the former head of NSA, General Hayden, said, which amounts to solicitation for Snowden's murder. What's being portrayed here as a joke is anything but. In fact, though packaged differently, it's on par with the infamous utterance (as commonly expressed) of Henry II of England "Will no one rid me of this turbulent priest?" which led to the murder of Thomas Moore. An individual of Hayden's stature does not "happen" make a public joke about whacking someone. Ever. It is a signal.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/03/edward-snowden-kill-list-joke-us-intelligence-chiefs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Becket

Having done all I can for you on why I'm so closed mouth about whence I got the information, let's move on to the latest.

Since I posted earlier, I've been provided with a further bit of explanation. It went something like this. "He leapt up and grabbed the cannon barrel with his left hand and the RPG dangling from his right hand. He then swung up the RPG, stuck it in the barrel and pulled the trigger. Immediately, he dropped the weapon and ran away. Apparently, the tank had been firing, and the RPG came down the barrel right about the time the tank fired. The resulting explosion was sufficient to kill the crew, but still leave the tank partially combat effective.

I'd love to find someone strong and fit to try this maneuver with an inerted RPG-7 on an M1 or M1 full scale mockup. Having neither, I'm afraid someone with better equipment access than I do will have to, pardon the expression, give it a shot! Meanwhile, here's a recent video showing an FSA warrior throwing a grenade down the barrel of a Syrian tank, destroying it. There's some great clear footage of things like an RPG-29 firing through a loophole barely wider than the tube, but the close assault, which takes practically no time, begins at !:05 with the attacker to the immediate left of the gun barrel.

Regards,

John Kettler

[LukeFF]

Judging from the description of events provided me by spook contacts

Read no farther than that, people.

[sburke]

Read no farther than that, people.

Yeah let me see, I can't name names because of the risk, but I can spill every little detail I hear to the world cause no one could ever figure out who told me.

[Kieme(ITA)]

Thanks for sharing the pictures and links.

But I really don't buy the RPG through the gun barrel story, sounds more like a bolliwood movie.

[John Kettler]

Kieme(ITA),

You're welcome. I think I'll have a chat about the idea with my next door neighbor who served two tours in Iraq as a Marine. He's also been around M1s, so should understand the spatial relationships far better than I can. Mind, there may be some distortion on the results, though, for he's 6' 10"! ISIS should be grateful it wasn't a female Peshmerga who did in their nasty toy. That'd make them the laughingstock of radical Muslims worldwide! I can hear it now "Your tank got killed by a girl! Your tank got killed by a girl!"

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wicky]

JK you do your credibility no favours when you claim that you and secret sources are pursuased by guvment 'black helicopters' when in reality the government pays you disability benefits so you can sit around all day in sheltered accommodation indulging, between seeing your Neurologist, your hobby of psychically conversing with 'spooky' space aliens from different dimensions, and then thinking that we'll be impressed by the scoops from these medication inspired dialogues.

[sburke]

JK you do your credibility no favours when you claim that you and secret sources are pursuased by guvment 'black helicopters' when in reality the government pays you disability benefits so you can sit around all day in sheltered accommodation indulging, between seeing your Neurologist, your hobby of psychically conversing with 'spooky' space aliens from different dimensions, and then thinking that we'll be impressed by the scoops from these medication inspired dialogues.

But that's where you are wrong Wicky. Having been at many a dead show and properly medicated I am in fact quote jealous of the whatever it is JK has got his hands on.

[agusto]

Meanwhile, here's a recent video showing an FSA warrior throwing a grenade down the barrel of a Syrian tank, destroying it.

Regards,

John Kettler

I miss the 'Incredible footage' thread we had last year. Too bad it got locked. We had lots of interesting videos and some good discussions there.

However the tank in the video you posted is clearly abdonned, dead and obviously not sitting right in the middle of an active battlefield, all factors that significantly increase the chances of success of a bomb-down-the-barrel-attack. They are destroying it so that the SAA cant tow it away and repair it.

[John Kettler]

Wicky,

I could come in here with absolutely ironclad evidence, and it wouldn't matter a whit if it didn't happen to suit you. Moreover, you have an obsession with me which may well be clinical! I urge you to seek competent help. I've never said black helicopters have pursued me or my sources. This is one of your typical baseless attacks which seek to discredit me and what I have to say. I HAVE seen pictures and vids of black helos. They belong to the US Army's Night Stalkers or, formally, 160th SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment). I have no neurologist, but have been trying for some time to get one. I live, if you can call it that, in a hellhole infested with cockroaches, which has no banister and have a Grade One anus of a landlord who is the worst not only I've had, but others in my small building and the adjacent one. Am pretty sure swapping abodes would be a huge improvement for me and, given your outrageous behavior toward me, richly deserved for you. I'm quite lucid, do not share the Cloud Cuckoo Land which you inhabit, and the rest is prohibited for me to discuss, as you very well know. Steve asked me directly not to go into certain topics, a request which I've honored and shall not make an exception because your behavior is clearly that of a git.

sburke,

You really wouldn't like it. It's all prescribed and taken per instruction. Besides, one of them can create cotton mouth almost instantly, and you never know when it's coming.

agusto,

With you on that. On a separate note, I went back and reviewed the video. The idiot cameraman (who seemingly loves videoing that confounded tree) didn't bother to focus on the tank until it burst into flame, so I couldn't tell you whether or not the hatches were open. What I can say is that when the grenade goes off, the tank gun does a CM and drops immediately. If the tank is already dead, then why would the insurgents bother to close assault it? Unless they're not sure themselves.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Kieme(ITA)]

I agree with agusto. The tank is abandoned.

Interesting note: the tank is sitting with the barrel at an elevation which is probably the "loading elevation", that is: the gun is ready to be loaded, and does not seem to be in a combat elevation, so to say.. Ok, it's hard to tell the degrees it is sitting at, but from the looks of it seems so.

The fact that after the big blast it goes to lower elevation is a factor linked to the internal mechanisms which most surely failed after the blast itself.

Agusto's explanation, insurgents destroying a damaged tank because they can't use/repair it, is very realistic: an insurgent Group wouldn't use precious RPG ammunition to destroy such a tank and would go for explosives at close distance, relatively safe with a tank without crew and sitting in the open.. now, you could say the best method would be to toss a grenade from one of the turret hatches, but that would not be as dramatic as the video shows...

Moreover, would you sit at such close distance to a tank attack against an operative vehicle? Moreover, consider that there are very little chances that such a vehicle operates completely isolated from any other vehicle/unit.

I too agree that that vehicle seems more of an abandoned one than anything else.

[E4Grunt]

Wicky,

I could come in here with absolutely ironclad evidence, and it wouldn't matter a whit if it didn't happen to suit you. Moreover, you have an obsession with me which may well be clinical! I urge you to seek competent help. I've never said black helicopters have pursued me or my sources. This is one of your typical baseless attacks which seek to discredit me and what I have to say. I HAVE seen pictures and vids of black helos. They belong to the US Army's Night Stalkers or, formally, 160th SOAR (Special Operations Aviation Regiment). I have no neurologist, but have been trying for some time to get one. I live, if you can call it that, in a hellhole infested with cockroaches, which has no banister and have a Grade One anus of a landlord who is the worst not only I've had, but others in my small building and the adjacent one. Am pretty sure swapping abodes would be a huge improvement for me and, given your outrageous behavior toward me, richly deserved for you. I'm quite lucid, do not share the Cloud Cuckoo Land which you inhabit, and the rest is prohibited for me to discuss, as you very well know. Steve asked me directly not to go into certain topics, a request which I've honored and shall not make an exception because your behavior is clearly that of a git.

Blah, blah, blah, yadda, yadda. We've heard all this a thousand times before. JK, you are singled out as your are here because of your history of posting utter trash, like the whole thing about the Germans supposedly detonating nukes at Kursk.

[sburke]

sburke,

You really wouldn't like it. It's all prescribed and taken per instruction. Besides, one of them can create cotton mouth almost instantly, and you never know when it's coming.

Regards,

John Kettler

Hey don't underestimate me, cottonmouth is nothing new!

like the whole thing about the Germans supposedly detonating nukes at Kursk.

You do have to admit that was one of the funnest threads ever on this forum.

For those who missed it there were several pages of buildup, but this is when it really took off

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=110856&page=7

[John Kettler]

lwallace79,

Exactly, when, pray tell, did you assume the purple? Shall we now refer to you as Imperator L. Wallacensis, for clearly you must be, since you arrogate to yourself the imperial "we, " and presume to speak for everyone here? As for posting utter trash, I think any rational analysis of the total content of my posts since I got here January 2000 would show that the overwhelming portion of my posts have had nothing whatever to do with what clearly sets you off. When Winecape sends you wine from South Africa over the excellence of your posts, do come see me! You talk a big game, but you have nothing to back it. If you'd care to PM me, since you're not set up to receive them yet, I'll be happy to explain certain things to you I won't go into here.

sburke,

Don't quite know what to make of the cottonmouth remark, but it made me smile.

Regards,

John Kettler

[E4Grunt]

Shall we now refer to you as Imperator L. Wallacensis

Don't mind if you do.

since you arrogate to yourself the imperial "we, " and presume to speak for everyone here?

Umm, yes, this is a public forum, so it's certainly not only been me who's been reading your posts all these years.

As for posting utter trash, I think any rational analysis of the total content of my posts since I got here January 2000 would show that the overwhelming portion of my posts have had nothing whatever to do with what clearly sets you off.

That's debatable, to say the least.

[Jock Tamson]

Is there a Lizard Man mod available for CMSF?

[ChrisND]

Ooook, time to shut this down.