T-34 Loadout esp. Canister

[BradinAus]

Hi guys,

just received RT in the mail yesterday and really enjoying it.

But umm, why does the T-34 have 'canister' rounds?

I was a bit shocked to find it there. Exactly what round is it meant to be?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-34_tank_gun

and even

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=43839

[LukeFF]

But umm, why does the T-34 have 'canister' rounds?

SH-350, nothing odd about it.

[John Kettler]

BradinAus,

The Russian canister round for tanks is a carryover from the earlier field guns. There, canister was the weapon of last resort against infantry trying to overrun the guns. 549 bullets do a large impression make. One round = ~a full minute of Maxim HMG fire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/76_mm_divisional_gun_M1939_(USV)

Here are some ammo pics you'll find of interest. Taken as a whole, you can see exactly what the SH-350 canister round looks like inside and outside. Those 549 balls are 12.7mm in diameter.

Amadeus on the CMBB Archive at the Game Squad Forum

"I just found a 1949 manual about Soviet 76mm ammunition.

Here are the scans of the 76mm unitary cartridge UShch-353 with Shch-350 canister round:

http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/5752/shch3501.jpg

http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/2753/shch3502.jpg "

As you can here, the 45mm and 57mm ATGs also fired canister.

http://russianammo.org/Russian_Ammunition_Page_57mm.html

Battlefield.ru shows no 85mm canister round

http://english.battlefield.ru/85mm-s-31-tank-gun.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[BradinAus]

AH, ok. My bad! I thought they were only for the F-22 USV / Zis-3 guns. Apparently not. Thanks!

wdit: Thanks John. So the Shch-350 was part of the standard loadout for T-34 F-34 guns?

[John Kettler]

BradinAus,

Yes, it was. If the practice carried over. The "shrapnel rounds" described here are the item in question.

Degen Ion Lazarevitch (served on armored trains and the T-34/85)

- When was ammunition replenished?

- Only after battles. The ammunition allotment for the old T-34 (T-34-76) was comprised of 101 rounds, that of the T-34-85 - 55 rounds: 15 in the turret and 40 in "ammo cases." That was enough, the tankers of our brigade did not take any rounds over the standard allotment, and nobody compiled emergency reserves. I always watched over the ammunition stores to ensure that in addition to armor-piercing rounds, we always had five sub-caliber (hardcore) rounds and five shrapnel rounds in the tank."

As a result of link posting clarification from Moon, I can now show that as of December 1943, T-34/76s were officially supposed to have 10 canister rounds but had only 8 as of March-May of 1944.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/weapons/art_tanks.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[Lt Belenko]

John K good link. The most interesting stat there is 30 degree per second on T34 turret rotation. Wow.

[MikeyD]

Other armies in other CM titles get to enjoy playing with canister too. The U.S. 37mm in CMBN and CMFI, and the French R-35 tank in Italian service in CMFI too. Between its thick armor and canister rounds R-35 is something of a 'Mighty Mouse' in that game.

30 degree per second on T34 turret rotation. Wow.

Yeh, during Beta testing testers thought rotation speed was a bug at first but nope, T-34-76 turret spins like a freakin' carnival ride. T34-85, by contrast, lack a turret drive until September in the game. Hand cranked and slow as molasses.

[John Kettler]

Lt Belenko,

Happy to help, but that's if the electric traverse is working. The T-34/76 sent to Aberdeen, now known to have been handpicked, had a terrible motor.

Handpicked Nature

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2014/01/rough-handling-at-aberdeen.html

Tech Eval

http://english.battlefield.ru/evaluation-of-the-t-34-and-kv-dp1.html

" The electrical mechanism for rotating the turret is very bad. The motor is weak, very overloaded and sparks horribly, as a result of which the device regulating the speed of the rotation burns out, and the teeth of the cogwheels break into pieces. They recommend replace it with a hydraulic or simply manual system."

The MV deltas reported under Armament are simply ridiculous. Look like mistranslation and typos combined!

This is a rather different rendering of conclusions from the document. Note particularly the observation by Ogurtsov on the MV issue and that the complete reports runs 650 pages I'd be most interested in perusing.

http://tankarchives.blogspot.com/2013/04/aberdeen-t-34-and-kv-1-test.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[Freyberg]

Canister is an awesomely deadly round against infantry. Haven't seen a tank use it in CMRT, but I love it when Stuarts and Greyhounds use it in the other titles. It looks spectacular and makes a mess.

[DavidFields]

Canister is an awesomely deadly round against infantry. Haven't seen a tank use it in CMRT, but I love it when Stuarts and Greyhounds use it in the other titles. It looks spectacular and makes a mess.

+1. Looks like buck shot out of a shotgun--and the opposing infantry is decimated.

[BradinAus]

Degen Ion Lazarevitch (served on armored trains and the T-34/85)

- When was ammunition replenished?

I always watched over the ammunition stores to ensure that in addition to armor-piercing rounds, we always had five sub-caliber (hardcore) rounds and five shrapnel rounds in the tank."

...

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/rkkaww2/weapons/art_tanks.htm

Hi John,

I saw your other post about special rounds for the 85mm. Did you find any reference to this 85mm shrapnel round that Lazarevitch and the table at Armchair General mentions - or is it a memory/translation/cut-and-paste error?

Lots of different websites and lots of conflicting information. Some sites call the series of ammunition for the 76mm tank gun as "350" sometimes it's "354". So confusing,

[BradinAus]

Canister is an awesomely deadly round against infantry. Haven't seen a tank use it in CMRT

I've only had the game a few days and I've seen it a few times. Nasty.

I have also seen it used at close range against a 251 halftrack. I'm not sure whether the crew was visible thereby triggering the round or whether it was being used as it was within penetration range. In any case, it did penetrate and was rather nasty. A few hundred BBs bouncing around inside a halftrack? Ouch.

[Michael Emrys]

+1. Looks like buck shot out of a shotgun--and the opposing infantry is decimated.

My own experience with the round has not been all that great although I recognize that it has great potential at the right range against the right target. Most of the time, I have inflicted on one or two casualties per round, so not really different from a standard HE round out of the same gun. Part of the problem is that the TAC AI fires it when it will not achieve optimum effectiveness. In other words, it fires a single man targets, and/or at a range where the shot pattern is attenuated and lost much of its velocity. Close in, say 50-75m, against a bunched up mass of men in open terrain, I would expect it to be deadly, but that rarely happens in the games I have seen.

Michael

[John Kettler]

BradinAus,

Valera Potapov says no shrapnel (which is canister in this case) was carried on the T-34/85. Ion Lazarevitch, who never served in combat, as opposed to tank school, on any T-34 model that wasn't a T-34/85, says there was, as does the Armchair General RKKA site segment. On balance, I'm strongly inclined to favor the primary source, Lazarevitch, whose statement is backed by the Russian sources on the Armchair General RKKA section. I give particular weight to Lazarevitch because not only is a a primary source, but as a tank commander, he clearly understood that canister (to keep the fausters and closing infantry at bay), together with Arrowhead (APCR), the most effective antitank round vs. heavy German armor, were vital to the very survival of his tank and crew. I find that position eminently reasonable and giving every indication of his being a conscientious tank commander.

Regards,

John Kettler

[A Canadian Cat]

Most of the time, I have inflicted on one or two casualties per round, so not really different from a standard HE round out of the same gun.

But it looked really cool doing it

I have seen some used for good effect in CMFI but you are right it often gets used against single soldiers and it feels kind of wasted then.

[GhostRider3/3]

Say not sure but I remember CMBB had the Pz. III Ausf.N (Inf Support) to combat Infantry. It was equipped with Canister shot. Will this be added again or not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.5_cm_KwK_37

In regards to using canister shot, I try to micromanage this.. by using short arcs... and by manually using "Target Light" (MG only) on single infantry targets when I can... thus saving canister shot for groups of infantry, and Anti-tank guns.

[Michael Emrys]

I find myself using Target Light more conscientiously of late in order to conserve main gun rounds. I am also using it more to conduct recon by fire.

Michael

[GhostRider3/3]

I find myself using Target Light more conscientiously of late in order to conserve main gun rounds. I am also using it more to conduct recon by fire.

Michael

That's what I do as well.. especially in Urban areas or wood-line areas. I use "Target Light" often trying to expose enemy positions, making them move. There are some great scenario's and Campaigns already, and I am sure more to come. I have lost fewer men from this tactic... Target briefly with a few HE shells can be nice as well. I like the fact that you can plan your waypoints to some degree with different actions.