Mawik Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Hi I found something strange for tanks spotting. Pz IV spot IS but Panter doesn't see tank. this is bug or typical behavior ? Regards 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 As far as I can tell, your PzIV is "Destroyed", so shouldn't be spotting anything. What other units can see the "phantom" Russkie tank? Spotting runs in cycles, how often depends on the unit and other circumstances. If the Panther was moving, and the Russian just came out from behind cover the Panther might not see it yet. There is "haze" between the two units which might be spoiling the Panther's chance to spot. Are trees "on"? It could be that the Panther's view is obscured by low hanging vegetation. You don't provide enough information for a definitive answer, even from someone who knows more about the way the game works than I do. All I can say is that there are circumstances when what you're seeing would be "expected behaviour". You'll need to give more information, and, for preference, a save of the turn replay, before anyone will be able to be more definitive. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 When you select the PzIV (destroyed) the spotting shows your total spotting knowledge, NOT the PzIV (destroyed)'s spotting knowledge. It is the sum of all spots, not the specific unit spot. (soas>sus. Every individual sus makes up the soas.) If you select the Soviet AFV icon, only the German units which have spotted that AFV will be highlighted. You will see one or more German icons highlighted. Your concern seems to be that the Panther has a crewmember unbuttoned and the Soviet AFV is "right there!", yet, the Panther is unaware of it. Give it a few seconds. The spotting cycle takes a few seconds to re-query a unit's ability to spot. That particular crewmember may see the Soviet AFV, but the Panther as a UNIT needs to get the information disseminated amongst the crew. That takes a few seconds. Does this help? Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAurelius Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 noone can tell me that the Panther cannot see the IS in front of him... Pz IV or not... let's stay serious here.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 noone can tell me that the Panther cannot see the IS in front of him... Pz IV or not... let's stay serious here.... Actually, yes we can. Spotting is not checked every millisecond. It's checked "periodically". The "default" cycle time is seven whole seconds. This will probably get checked sooner because the target is already spotted, so there's probably a "special relationship" extant between the spotter and this target. It will probably be on a shorter polling cycle because there's more crew, and because there are other enemy units about. But spotting is not instant. Also, there is no way we can tell what level of tree cover that field has without Mawik informing us; "ALT-T"ing trees off is a common cause of "Spotting puzzlement". If there's a tree sticking up through the Panther, and a low shrub between the hull viewports and the IS-2, the Panther probably won't be able to see the IS-2 well enough to shoot at it and will just get a "?" icon when spotting is reassessed. Maybe it's a bug. It's possible. But we can't know because Mawik, as a new guy, and not as aware of the necessary level of detail to give a certain opinion, hasn't provided enough detail yet, and there are "serious" factors which could mean that the Panther is either permanently, or temporarily unsighted. Not that it matters much, because as soon as the IS-2 spots the Panther (which should happen pretty much as soon as the Panther sees the IS-2 at that range, even if the Ivan is buttoned), the Panther's toast, because its gun is off-axis and the Russkie is pointing, from the looks of it, right at the PzV. Edit: It's also worth noting that LOF/LOS is completely reciprocal. Spotting chances aren't, obviously, but the deterministic calculation of whether/when a unit gets an opportunity to check for spotting is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 noone can tell me that the Panther cannot see the IS in front of him... Pz IV or not... let's stay serious here.... Right. We launched into a "how the game works" explanation. To be honest there are a few times where the way the game works just does not match up perfectly. Two enemy units soooo close together causes issues. I fully agree it is insane to think that the Panther cannot see the enemy tank. Unless... some of the factors mentioned actually come into play. As @womble said we don't really have the full picture with those tiny screen shots only. All of what @womble and @c3k have said have bearing on this. Including that we do not have enough information yet. But having said that this one sure looks like a case of oops. However I suspect that it falls out side of something that will be adjusted since it happens so rarely - see below for more. Actually, yes we can. Spotting is not checked every millisecond. It's checked "periodically". The "default" cycle time is seven whole seconds. ... But spotting is not instant. For more info: in the past Steve has informed us that to mitigate these kinds of happenings when units are in close proximity the spotting cycle is reduced. It is still a cycle so still not instant. Also, there is no way we can tell what level of tree cover that field has without Mawik informing us; "ALT-T"ing trees off is a common cause of "Spotting puzzlement". If there's a tree sticking up through the Panther, and a low shrub between the hull viewports and the IS-2, the Panther probably won't be able to see the IS-2 well enough to shoot at it and will just get a "?" icon when spotting is reassessed. This is important stuff to know. I also believe that smoke is rendered less dense in the game than the visual calculations would suggest. I have seen a few cases of units seeing the enemy behind smoke because of their viewing angle and at the same time those that are "blocked" by the smoke cannot see them but when you get down to unit level and look with your eyes you wonder how they cannot see the enemy. I feel this is down to smoke is actually more dense and we "see" in game. Maybe it's a bug. It's possible. But we can't know because Mawik, as a new guy, and not as aware of the necessary level of detail to give a certain opinion, hasn't provided enough detail yet, and there are "serious" factors which could mean that the Panther is either permanently, or temporarily unsighted. Not that it matters much, because as soon as the IS-2 spots the Panther (which should happen pretty much as soon as the Panther sees the IS-2 at that range, even if the Ivan is buttoned, the Panther's toast, because its gun is off-axis and the Russkie is pointing, from the looks of it, right at the PzV. Yep, spot on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Those are forest tiles by the Panther so I'd bet you guys are correct, trees are turned off. Also without being able to see the actual turn, a single snapshot gives no context. Without that we are all guessing. Could be a real messed up spotting issue or we could do a face palm and say, why of course, between the smoke, trees and close infantry assault, the Panther is distracted. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Felix_45 Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 noone can tell me that the Panther cannot see the IS in front of him... Pz IV or not... let's stay serious here.... If the Pather's crew is these guys then I doubt they would spot the IS in front of them. :D:D:D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 Lol, that's way too nice a vehicle for them. And where 's Julian? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted April 30, 2014 Share Posted April 30, 2014 As it is unbuttoned and uber close I do think this may not be right. On the other hand something like this happening will be uber rare so it's not a major issue but could do with being checked out. My concern with spotting has always been that it seems units are pretty deaf rather than blind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 As it is unbuttoned and uber close I do think this may not be right. On the other hand something like this happening will be uber rare so it's not a major issue but could do with being checked out. My concern with spotting has always been that it seems units are pretty deaf rather than blind. I would like to see AI response to sound contacts be improved. Regarding deafness, per se, it seems my guys hear far too well. Not too many soldiers have earplugs or hearing defenders on when they start shooting. The images of MG34/42 assistant gunners holding the machinegun on their shoulder should make one think about this. Then, there's the scene in "Blackhawk Down" (and discussed in the book) about the two Rangers separated and alone. The one guy kept screaming because he'd been firing his M240 and had that insane ringing/deafness. The other guy kept trying to shut him up so they wouldn't be found. Having been close to several small explosions (which I shouldn't have been), I can attest to the deafening effect. And, has no one else here been out shooting, on a firing line, on a patrol, when it was time to shoot and NOT time to protect your ears? The ringing continues for some time. Men in combat have their hearing assaulted enough to deafen them. Men in combat have a lot of other sounds nearby drowning out something like a T34 idling 500m through the woods. (Depending on the combat situation.) Men in combat have adrenaline flushing through their systems. The body's physiological response to extreme fear/stress is to shed non-critical systems...like hearing and peripheral vision. It's all about blood flow to muscle groups, 02 saturation and focused vision. Hearing and thinking/processing? Those drop off at the same time as digestion and the way you were bothered by that fold in your sock that was underfoot. In the quiet before the forces engage, I'd -love- for my men to react to sound contacts. Once the shooting starts, I'd contend that any sound contact is a stretch of fanciful game engineering. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 I shoot my 9mm and .45 often and I totally agree. Sound contacts, at least when it's just infantry moving over ground, or even just a little shifting around in one position, should not usually be heard, I would think. Vehicles being a different animal, of course. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawrence Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 In the quiet before the forces engage, I'd -love- for my men to react to sound contacts. Once the shooting starts, I'd contend that any sound contact is a stretch of fanciful game engineering. I think c3k nails it. Would be great to see implemented, if indeed that is possible, or indeed deemed high enough up the 'list'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 1, 2014 Share Posted May 1, 2014 Not all "?" are sound contacts, in case anyone was thinking that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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