Numbers of G43 and MP/StG44 (in relation)

[Kauz]

Hello

in the title you can see what this thread is all about.

Here the question:

I see G43 rifles (often 1-2 pieces in every group) but do not see StG44 (MP44)?

Before you intervent....Yes, i tried 30 september 44, elite units, full supply and so on and i chose an armored Panzergrenadierbatallion in the scenario editor....

That all should ensure that i have the maximum probability to get my selected units equipped with MP44 assault rifles.

Then i started counting the G43 and the MP44 rifles....

Here the result:

31 x G43

8 (eight) x MP44

and most funny: 3 (three) of these few MP44 were delivered in heavy machine squads (lol?!) and 1 (one) in a 81mm mortar unit.

What i expected some may ask?... I expected a same amount of G43 and StG44 rifles ...especially in elite units i expected eventually even more StG44 than G43.

Before some intervent that the MP44 were just rare these days....here some fast impressions/researches

The MG42 were build about 400 000 times (bigger production started already in 1943...so it already should have loses in amount over the war)...the G43 were build about 400 000 times too(bigger production startet in beginning of 1944)

and the StG44 were build also about 400 000 times (bigger production started already end of 1943).

Here a source for the G43 ( http://www.whq-forum.de/cms/540.0.html ):

G43 derivates were produced:

1943: 3 209

1944: 299 798 (the bigger numbres were produced Februar to Mai)

1945: 99 706

total: 402 713

Here a source for the MP44 ( http://www.waffeninfo.net/waff_stgw44_02.php ):

MP43 / MP44

1943 19 501

1944 281 860

1945 124 616

total: 425 977 (ignoring the additional 12 000 MKb42 produced mainly in 1943)

So i ask myself.....why do i find 31 x G43 and only 8 x StG 44 .

I would expect a same amount in STG44 and G43 ....especially in elite units with "elite" supply i would expect even the opposite (more StG 44 than G43). Sorry for repeating me.....

There are several answers on the question:

The developer believes:

A) the produced StG44 were just not delivered to any unit and just waited in arsenals and looked good

were only delivered to other battlefields and not to the units in the middle/south eastern "bagration"-battle area

C) were only delivered in masses to special (for example specific Waffen SS) units which are not represented in the game?

D) did just a little crap and thought it is just better to equippe the units in 1944 CMRT like german units may be equipped more like in 1941 (if we ignore the sporadically G43 ).

Hope someone can help me to understand what that whole suspicous thing is all about.

Remembering CMBB: there was not a single G43 and at 1944/1945 and depending on unit type A LOT of Stg44

- Ok in know their firepower at 100-250 was just not existing (no improvement to MP40 and K98), but they were included in the game -

[c3k]

Nice research. I have not checked your numbers. If they are correct, I think the reason would be a combination of B and C.

Posting A and D does not reflect credit on yourself. (Perhaps they were meant in jest and the humor did not come across?)

Ken

[akd]

MP44s were not allocated first to "elite" units, armored units or the Waffen SS. Longstanding war gaming myth, in my opinion. AFAIK, the majority went to infantry divisions.

[Kauz]

MP44s were not allocated first to "elite" units, armored units or the Waffen SS. Longstanding war gaming myth, in my opinion. AFAIK, the majority went to infantry divisions.

My answer-suggestions were only a tip what the answers could be.

I do not know if your telling is the right...but in case you are right it is even better for my argumentation.

You can try....do find the StG44 in your infantry divisions in the game?....

I guess i know the answer....

[Kauz]

Nice research. I have not checked your numbers. If they are correct, I think the reason would be a combination of B and C.

Posting A and D does not reflect credit on yourself. (Perhaps they were meant in jest and the humor did not come across?)

Ken

All options were meant (semi-) serious... even if i do not believe of a high chance->in case of A) the StG44 may not be delivered because there was not enough "7,92 kurz"ammo to bring all StG44 rifle in action at the same time.

And in case of D) ... what shall i tell you?.....when i first read your reaction it seemed to me that you have somehow (and some others here too) a constant faith in the infallibility of battlefront. Believe it or not....but they are able to do mistakes and they are not objective (me not too!) ...they are human beings....

It does not help on if 50%-75% of all posts(posters) in this forum take an BF decision/doing at face value.

But back to the topic....

I hope i get some enlightening/satisfying answers/reactions on this issue.

[Oddball_E8]

A few things to consider:

1: there were entire units armed with nothing but StG's... that would put a bit of a drain on the total numbers in other units.

2: apparantly some soldiers reported their StG's as lost after burying them in the ground. (Apparantly because the ammo was in short supply and it was better to have an "inferior" rifle with plenty of ammo than a "superior" one with little ammo.)

[sburke]

All options were meant (semi-) serious... even if i do not believe of a high chance->in case of A) the StG44 may not be delivered because there was not enough "7,92 kurz"ammo to bring all StG44 rifle in action at the same time.

And in case of D) ... what shall i tell you?.....when i first read your reaction it seemed to me that you have somehow (and some others here too) a constant faith in the infallibility of battlefront. Believe it or not....but they are able to do mistakes and they are not objective (me not too!) ...they are human beings....

It does not help on if 50%-75% of all posts(posters) in this forum take an BF decision/doing at face value.

But back to the topic....

I hope i get some enlightening/satisfying answers/reactions on this issue.

BF will be the first to say they are fallible. However again, they set a pretty rigorous standard as to what data set they need to begin changing stuff. I had more hope from your initial posts you weren't gonna be just another one of those guys with his set perception of what the uber German army should look like that then slams BF with sarcastic comments and then alludes to their base of fanbois. Once you go that route it is going to be real hard to get BF to take you seriously in a discussion to alter aspects of the game. It isn't like they haven't been researching these games for 15 years.

My suggestion is to back off the sarcasm and stick to collecting actual data and being open minded enough to be able to accept that maybe, just maybe, you could also be incorrect.

I for one do take most of what BF says at face value. I am not a grog and I don't intend to become one. I also know to some extent how much research they do (at least I see a tip of the iceberg on it anyway). Based on that I am able to respect that their figures and settings are usually in the ballpark at least.

[akd]

The problem is there were very few specific TO&E allocations for MP44s at this time, yet thousands were being produced and delivered. However, there is no evidence that these deliveries were spread out across all units as penny packet replacements for MP40s. Instead, it seems that individual units (especially certain infantry divisions in the east) were allocated large numbers as replacements for rifles, large numbers which were probably rapidly attrited (via combat loss or supply). So a random snapshot of units during Bagration would probably have most units without MP44 at all, some with several hundred (possibly concentrated into specific sub-formations) and others with 1000+. The way the TO&E is setup with a low percentage chance of replacement of individual weapons in every unit does not reflect this reality well. What would be preferable is a high-rarity editor option at perhaps the grenadier/fusilier platoon level to replace a significant percentage of rifles (and some MP40s) with MP44s.

[Kauz]

A few things to consider:

1: there were entire units armed with nothing but StG's... that would put a bit of a drain on the total numbers in other units....

In this case:

Are these units available to purchase in the game?

I´am afraid of your/the likely answer.

2: apparantly some soldiers reported their StG's as lost after burying them in the ground. (Apparantly because the ammo was in short supply and it was better to have an "inferior" rifle with plenty of ammo than a "superior" one with little ammo.)

If this is enough to explain the mentioned enourmous drain of weapon equippement in the game, i do not know.

But in general a good point! May be a suitable part of the answer.

Would be interessting to know how BF is exactly justifying his decision. And keep in mind ...this 31/8 ratio seemed to be the biggest/best ratio in favor to the StG44 doable with the scenario editor. They should have a very good explanation for this horror.

[AttorneyAtWar]

In this case:

Are these units available to purchase in the game?

I´am afraid of your/the likely answer.

If this is enough to explain the mentioned enourmous drain of weapon equippement in the game, i do not know.

But in general a good point! May be a suitable part of the answer.

Would be interessting to know how BF is exactly justifying his decision. And keep in mind ...this 31/8 ratio seemed to be the biggest/best ratio in favor to the StG44 doable with the scenario editor. They should have a very good explanation for this horror.

"This horror"

I think you really need to change your attitude or how you word these things if you want people to take you seriously. Your research and "Numbers" so far are not really creditable at all, who am I supposed to take more seriously the random guy who links one website and complains sarcastically about it or the company that is known for its WW2 knowledge over the past 15 years?

[ASL Veteran]

In this case:

Are these units available to purchase in the game?

I´am afraid of your/the likely answer.

The Panzer Brigade in the Market Garden module has a unit that is entirely equipped with the MP44. Such formations will eventually make their way to the eastern front but they aren't there yet. Volksgrenadier divisions aren't represented yet either (the fusilier company was likely equipped entirely with MP44s). Overall I tend to agree with AKD on this topic. The evidence from both a TO&E and logisitics standpoint seems to point in the direction of not having individual MP44s penny packeted out. If they were penny packeted out then it would be very difficult from a logistics standpoint to keep ammunition available for them. This is especially true since ammunition for the weapon was in such short supply. Keep in mind that the German army had been producing standard rifle and pistol rounds for about thirty years while the kurz round had only been produced for a year or two. Even with all those ammunition stocks on hand for rifle and pistol ammunition, by 1945 the Germans didn't have enough brass and had to rely on lacquered ammunition which was prone to jamming. There are many reports of allied soldiers finding MP44s discarded or buried due to a lack of ammunition. Without ammunition an MP44 is just a club.

[Marc Anton]

Maybe a balancing problem ? Imagine what could happen when "STG only troops" meets the "uber papasha ruskis".

But lets see what the fanboy section has to say once everyone has jumped out of their foxholes :-)

[Ts4EVER]

It is an often repeated myth that the German equipped "elite" units with the StG44. What you need to see is that the Germans did not only introduce a new weapon with the StG, but also a new tactical concept, the so called Sturmzug. The idea was that one platoon in each company (later 2 in the Volksgrenadier units) was to be equipped entirely with StG44s. In June 1944 this reorganisation process had just started. On top of that, the first units to be reorganised were Infanterie divisions (the 1. Infanterie-Division for instance was the first one to be completely reequipped). Panzergrenadiers had no StG44s in their TOEs until the 1945 version, which was never implemented.

What they did have in their TOEs however were G41 or G43 semi auto rifles, usually 2 per squad.

[Kommissar]

Imagine what could happen when "STG only troops" meets the "uber papasha ruskis".

Although not historical in any way, I admit it would kind of fun to be able to do custom loadouts on a squad to have something like 6 LMGs or all MP44s. It would be interesting to see at what range the MP44s consistently beat out the PPSHs. You could also, e.g., have a pistols-only round between a couple of platoons that might be entertaining.

[Fernando]

MP43/1 and MP4 in HGr. Mitte in late April, 1944 according to the reports filled on May 9th by the divisions battle testing them:

6. ID: 41

12. ID: 49

31. ID: 88

35. ID: 114

36. ID: 88

45. ID: 17

78. StD: 120

110. ID: 58

129. ID: 18

131. ID: 60

221. ID: 18

260. ID: 42

267. ID: 35

337. ID: 112

383. ID: 49

KAbt. E: 143

Supply AOK 9: 200

5. JgD: 220

SjiJg. Brigade 1: 1488

Kav. Rgt. Mitte: 770

25. PzGr. Div: 115

The following divisions in HGr Mitte had MP 43/1 on February 1, 1944, but did not fill a report:

95. ID: 35

296. ID: 60

14. ID: 50

197. ID: 10

211. ID: 35

299. ID: 49

4. LwFD: 39

6. LwFD: 24

The total amount of MP44 in service in the Eastern Front in April/May 1944 was about 10,900.

Germans wanted to test whether the MP44 could replace rifles AND MG42 then make the correct TO&Es. It was not just a matter of individually replacing old weapons by newer ones, but to create a new company organization.

In early 1944 it was ordered to fully equip the 1. Infanterie Division (HGr Nord-Ukraine) in order to make the combat tests but the lack of enough ammo didn’t allow to carry full text on until June 1944. The next fully equipped division was going to be 32. Infanterie Division but the June disaster forced Germans to spread the MP44 on more divisions, so in July it was ordered to deliver about 500-600 MP44 to several divisions in HGr. Nord and Nord-Ukraine. This time they were not combat test, but re-equipment of one platoon per Grenadier and Füsilier company with MP44.

In short, don’t expect a lot of MP44 in June 1944. The main problem was NOT producing the weapons, but producing enough ammo for them. As a rule Germans ONLY issued the weapons whose ammo they could supply. According to Speer, on August 11, 1944 there were 30,000 MP44 stored in the Reich because the ammo needed for them was lacking.

In 1944 the kurz ammo production averaged about 48 million rounds a month. However production was not regular, but it increased over time. In January 1944 kurz round production was just 6 million rounds while it was 103 millions in December.

Kurz production in 1944-45 (millions of rounds). Please, take into account that the total ammo production (kurz and regular rifle ammo) was from 300 to 480 millions of rounds a month in 1944.

January: 6

February: 6

March: 12

April: 16

May: 29

June: 29

July: 47

August: 63

September: 76

October: 86

November: 104

December: 103

January 1945: 110

Production in the first half of 1944 was about 98 million rounds or in other words, about 17% of 1944 kurz ammo production was done in the first half of 1944 while the remaining 83% was produced in the second half. And 50% of the 1944 total production was done in October-December 1944.

Hope it helps

[Kauz]

MP43/1 and MP4 in HGr. Mitte in late April, 1944 according to the reports filled on May 9th by the divisions battle testing them:

6. ID: 41

12. ID: 49

31. ID: 88

35. ID: 114

36. ID: 88

45. ID: 17

78. StD: 120

110. ID: 58

129. ID: 18

131. ID: 60

221. ID: 18

260. ID: 42

267. ID: 35

337. ID: 112

383. ID: 49

KAbt. E: 143

Supply AOK 9: 200

5. JgD: 220

SjiJg. Brigade 1: 1488

Kav. Rgt. Mitte: 770

25. PzGr. Div: 115

The following divisions in HGr Mitte had MP 43/1 on February 1, 1944, but did not fill a report:

95. ID: 35

296. ID: 60

14. ID: 50

197. ID: 10

211. ID: 35

299. ID: 49

4. LwFD: 39

6. LwFD: 24

The total amount of MP44 in service in the Eastern Front in April/May 1944 was about 10,900.

Germans wanted to test whether the MP44 could replace rifles AND MG42 then make the correct TO&Es. It was not just a matter of individually replacing old weapons by newer ones, but to create a new company organization.

In early 1944 it was ordered to fully equip the 1. Infanterie Division (HGr Nord-Ukraine) in order to make the combat tests but the lack of enough ammo didn’t allow to carry full text on until June 1944. The next fully equipped division was going to be 32. Infanterie Division but the June disaster forced Germans to spread the MP44 on more divisions, so in July it was ordered to deliver about 500-600 MP44 to several divisions in HGr. Nord and Nord-Ukraine. This time they were not combat test, but re-equipment of one platoon per Grenadier and Füsilier company with MP44.

In short, don’t expect a lot of MP44 in June 1944. The main problem was NOT producing the weapons, but producing enough ammo for them. As a rule Germans ONLY issued the weapons whose ammo they could supply. According to Speer, on August 11, 1944 there were 30,000 MP44 stored in the Reich because the ammo needed for them was lacking.

In 1944 the kurz ammo production averaged about 48 million rounds a month. However production was not regular, but it increased over time. In January 1944 kurz round production was just 6 million rounds while it was 103 millions in December.

Kurz production in 1944-45 was (millions of rounds). Please, take into account that the total ammo production (kurz and regular rifle ammo) was from about 300 to 480 millions of rounds a month in 1944.

January: 6

February: 6

March: 12

April: 16

May: 29

June: 29

July: 47

August: 63

September: 76

October: 86

November: 104

December: 103

January 1945: 110

Production in the first half of 1944 was about 98 million rounds or in other words, about 17% of 1944 kurz ammo production was done in the first half of 1944 while the remaining 83% was produced in the second half. And 50% of the 1944 total production was done in October-December 1944.

Hope it helps

Yes this helps a lot, thank you !!!

Can you tell me your sources would be interessting to get more information about that topic.

Regards

[c3k]

As mentioned, above, after testing, it seems that they were reserved for bulk allocation to specific units. "Bulk" being a relative term. My understanding, as already posted by others, is that volksgrenadier divisions were given them to equip "sturm" platoons in their fusilier battalions. Later, a sturm platoon in eash battalion, IIRC.

[Fernando]

Yes this helps a lot, thank you !!!

Can you tell me your sources would be interessting to get more information about that topic.

Handrich, Hans D., "Sturmgewehr! From Firepower to Striking Power", Collector Grade Publications, 2004

The original title in German was "Vom Gewehr 98 zum Sturmgewehr" and was published in 1993. The English version is a revised and expanded edition.

[Oddball_E8]

I think a better question would be why are there no PPSh 41's being used by the germans?

They were widely used on the eastern front by germans and they even produced ammunition for them.

Why are there none in the game?

[c3k]

^^^

Good fodder for another (separate) thread.

[Fernando]

Some additional data about infantry weapon production:

G43 and MP43/MP44 production in 1944:

January: 15,013 G43, 3,400 MP44

February: 19,623 G43, 4,050 MP44

March: 18,594 G43, 7,000 MP44

April: 24,500 G43, 9,000 MP44

May: 28,020 G43, 9,500 MP44

June: 30,600 G43, 13,000 MP44

July: 33,100 G43, 20,510 MP44

August: 29,271 G43, 29,500 MP44

September: 27,020 G43, 35,000 MP44

October: 29,700 G43, 46,000 MP44

November: 32,500 G43, 55,100 MP44

December: 36,415 G43, 49,800 MP44

G43s produced from January to May 44: 105,750

MP44 produced from January to May 44: 32,950

As it happened with the kurz ammo, 150,900 MP44 out of 281,860 produced in 1944 were made in October-December (53,5% of the 1944 production).

The data is extracted from the RMfRuk (Reichsministerium für Rüstung und Kriegsproduktion) survey of yearly production and average monthly production of weapons and equipment from 1940 to February 1945.

[c3k]

^^^

Great stuff.

I wonder what the delay was from production to getting it into the hands of the troops?

[LukeFF]

Maybe a balancing problem ? Imagine what could happen when "STG only troops" meets the "uber papasha ruskis".

But lets see what the fanboy section has to say once everyone has jumped out of their foxholes :-)

Do you expect to be taken seriously when you make a statement like that?

[LukeFF]

I think a better question would be why are there no PPSh 41's being used by the germans?

They were widely used on the eastern front by germans and they even produced ammunition for them.

Why are there none in the game?

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1507375&postcount=52

[Fernando]

Page 522 of Handrinch's Sturmgewehr book:

On April 1, 1938 the Wehrmacht had a stock of 3,638,037,000 rounds of standard infantry cartridge and 68,674,000 rounds of the pistol cartridge. In the course of the Czech crises of the same year the production rate of the complete infantry ammunition was specified as 343.47 million rounds per month. In regards to the standard infantry cartridge only, the average monthly production reached 182.46 million rounds during the first half of 1939. Despite the outbreak of war on September 1, 1939, the average monthly production increased to 205.05 million rounds. In 1940 the average monthly production dropped to 187.9 million rounds, dropped again in 1941 to an alarmingly low 38.7 million rounds, and increased slightly in 1942 to a still far too low 54.48 million rounds.

However, notwithstanding these low production figures, the depots were filled with ammunition. During the French campaign from May 10, 1940 to June 20, 1940, only 176.6 million rounds of the standard infantry ammunition and 18.7 million 9mm pistol cartridges were used. In the following months, from July 1 to December 31, 1940, the average monthly ammunition expenditure amounted to 25,083,333 rounds of infantry cartridges, and 2,179,500 pistol cartridges.

The OKH must have been convinced that the available stocks of ammunition would be more than sufficient for Unternehmen Barbarossa, but this was quickly proven to be a fallacy. Right from the beginning of the campaign in Russia, the Wehrmacht experienced unexpectedly high expenditures of all tipes of ammunition, which rapidly decimated the stockpiles. The expenditure of the 10.5 cm field howitzer grenades, for example, was 50 times higher than the number of grenades beign manufacturated.

Due to these extremely high and mounting expenditure, the RmfBuM and the WaA prescribed a new ammunition programme, which was confirmed by Hitler on April 15, 1942. It consisted of a Sofortprogramm (crash programme) to be met by March, 1943, and a Erweiterungsprogramm (extension programme) , whose two-stage demands were to be reached first by the end of 1944 and concluded in mid-1945. A future ammunition production programme in the Ukraine, the so-called Iwan Programm, was for a time also considered to be capable of massive production quotas.

In general, in spite of the enormously high demands placed on the industry, the production quotas were mainly fulfilled, especially in regard to artillery ammunition. Compared to the previously years, three-fold and higher rates of increase were achieved in 1942. But production of infantry ammunition did not share the favourable growth rate. The production target of 350 million standard infantry cartridges per month was not reached until March, 1944. In 1942 the average monthly production figure was 65.1 million rounds, and in 1943 203.4 million rounds, and these figures were not sufficient to compensate for the massive expenditures on the front. From May, 1942 through April, 1943, for instance, the expenditure of infantry cartridges increased by 75% compared to the previous year since Unternehmen Barbarossa had begun on June 22, 1941. But despite a steady increasing production rate from 1943 on, the number of infantry cartridges expended on the front was always higher.

This strained general situation sets the stage for the difficulties encountered in starting up series production of the short ammunition. There was no time to build and equip new factories, and thus this new task had to be added to the workload of factories already working to capacity manufacturing the standard infantry cartridge, which itself was never produced in sufficient quantities to satisfy the demands of the Wehrmacht.