Numbers of G43 and MP/StG44 (in relation)

[Oddball_E8]

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1507375&postcount=52

Read that answer and posted there, but I'll post here too: "But they DID produce ammo for them. The 7.63 mauser round was used (although it's less powerful than the tokarev round it still works fine with the weapon).

The Wehrmacht officially adopted the weapon as the MP41® and issued it with that ammo."

For some reason BFC seems to think the MP41® was uncommon and used in units that were not front line units, and yet you see them quite often in pictures from normandie on FJ troops, SS troops and Wehrmacht troops.

Frontline troops.

It boggles my mind why BFC has somehow gotten the notion that this weapon was not popular with the germans.

[Fernando]

Read that answer and posted there, but I'll post here too: "But they DID produce ammo for them. The 7.63 mauser round was used (although it's less powerful than the tokarev round it still works fine with the weapon).

The Wehrmacht officially adopted the weapon as the MP41® and issued it with that ammo."

For some reason BFC seems to think the MP41® was uncommon and used in units that were not front line units, and yet you see them quite often in pictures from normandie on FJ troops, SS troops and Wehrmacht troops.

Frontline troops.

It boggles my mind why BFC has somehow gotten the notion that this weapon was not popular with the germans.

Even a small amount of weapons needs millions of rounds if those weapons are going to be used at the front. In April, 1943, when 2,000 MKb42 were delivered for trials at the front, it was calculated that 4 million kurz rounds were needed in May 1943 and 5 million rounds a month from June, 1943 onwards. At that date monthly production was just 2 million rounds which was regarded as insufficient.

Supporting some thousand PPSh-41s at the front would need MILLIONs of 7,63mm rounds which could be produced by reducing the 7.92x57mm quota at a time where increasing the standard 7.92x57 ammunition production was sorely needed rather than reducing or freezing it. Germans did it with the MP44 and the kurz ammo indeed, but there were solid reasons for it. The MP44 was a weapon which was superior to any other fielded by any army during the war. The PPSh was just another SMG.

In short, if you need 320 million rounds a month, but you produce 300, then reducing them to 280 a month in order to produce 20 million rounds for the PPSh-41 or whatever weapon you fancy without getting a clear combat advantage with the new weapon, seems a bit odd. OTOH if you start to equip fully platoons with MP44…that’s different. In that case I would consider to freeze further standard ammunition increase then applying any ammunition production increase to the new kurz ammo. That is what the Germans did.

The problem was always ammunition production. Germans could divert some resources to produce enough ammo for weapons not used at the front, but they could not fully support them at the front.

[Ts4EVER]

For some reason BFC seems to think the MP41® was uncommon and used in units that were not front line units, and yet you see them quite often in pictures from normandie on FJ troops, SS troops and Wehrmacht troops.

Frontline troops.

Are these pictures on the internet somewhere? Sounds interesting.

[ASL Veteran]

The Wehrmacht officially adopted the weapon as the MP41® and issued it with that ammo."

The Germans assigned a designation to every weapon that they captured. The infamous French Chauchat light machine gun was designated 8mm leMG 156(f) if it was captured from French stockpiles. Belgian versions were designated 7.65mm leMG 126( while Greek versions were designated 8mm leMG 156(g). Saying that the Germans officially adopted a weapon and gave it a designation proves nothing. There are many weapons that I wouldn't mind seeing in the game such as the ZB vz/53 or the ZB vz/60 or perhaps even a Knorr Bremse MG35. maybe we could see Germans equipped with the old and reliable Mashinengewehr 08 some day? As far as SMGs go the Germans used the MP 18/1, MP 28/11, MP 34/1, MP 35/1, MP 41, MP 3008, and the MP Erma. The SS were fond of all those submachine guns yet none of them are in the game either.

[Fizou]

Read that answer and posted there, but I'll post here too: "But they DID produce ammo for them. The 7.63 mauser round was used (although it's less powerful than the tokarev round it still works fine with the weapon).

The Wehrmacht officially adopted the weapon as the MP41® and issued it with that ammo."

For some reason BFC seems to think the MP41® was uncommon and used in units that were not front line units, and yet you see them quite often in pictures from normandie on FJ troops, SS troops and Wehrmacht troops.

Frontline troops.

It boggles my mind why BFC has somehow gotten the notion that this weapon was not popular with the germans.

Nice finds Oddball.. Id love to see it return in Axis use. Miss it since CMBB.

[JasonC]

German WW II production of 7.92x57 ammunition 10.475 billion rounds. Billion, with a "B".

German WW II production of 7.92x33 ammunition 822 million rounds. Million, with an "M".

[LukeFF]

Are these pictures on the internet somewhere? Sounds interesting.

[LukeFF]

(Obviously from the same time & location as the one above it).

[LukeFF]

[Ts4EVER]

Those look all pretty "Ostfront" though, not like Normandy.

[LukeFF]

Those look all pretty "Ostfront" though, not like Normandy.

True. I have a hunch that captured PPSh-41s were far less common in France.

[Oddball_E8]

Even a small amount of weapons needs millions of rounds if those weapons are going to be used at the front. In April, 1943, when 2,000 MKb42 were delivered for trials at the front, it was calculated that 4 million kurz rounds were needed in May 1943 and 5 million rounds a month from June, 1943 onwards. At that date monthly production was just 2 million rounds which was regarded as insufficient.

Supporting some thousand PPSh-41s at the front would need MILLIONs of 7,63mm rounds which could be produced by reducing the 7.92x57mm quota at a time where increasing the standard 7.92x57 ammunition production was sorely needed rather than reducing or freezing it. Germans did it with the MP44 and the kurz ammo indeed, but there were solid reasons for it. The MP44 was a weapon which was superior to any other fielded by any army during the war. The PPSh was just another SMG.

In short, if you need 320 million rounds a month, but you produce 300, then reducing them to 280 a month in order to produce 20 million rounds for the PPSh-41 or whatever weapon you fancy without getting a clear combat advantage with the new weapon, seems a bit odd. OTOH if you start to equip fully platoons with MP44…that’s different. In that case I would consider to freeze further standard ammunition increase then applying any ammunition production increase to the new kurz ammo. That is what the Germans did.

The problem was always ammunition production. Germans could divert some resources to produce enough ammo for weapons not used at the front, but they could not fully support them at the front.

The main difference between the Kurz and the Mauser ammo here would be that they had been producing the mauser ammo since before the war even started and the increased production rate would have happened long before the kurz was even thought up.

Remember, the germans started using the MP41® right after the invasion of russia started.

Not to mention the captured ammo they would have gotten their hands on during the first 2 years of the invasion.

Sure, the use of the PPSh41 wouldn't be as widespread during 44 as it was in the earlier years due to the ammo shortage and the lack of repair parts, but they would still have been pretty common.

[Oddball_E8]

True. I have a hunch that captured PPSh-41s were far less common in France.

Oh definately. It wasn't exactly crawling with PPSh 41's but I've seen enough pictures of them on the west front to notice that they were there.

Most likely brought there by units formerly stationed on the east front.

[Fernando]

The main difference between the Kurz and the Mauser ammo here would be that they had been producing the mauser ammo since before the war even started and the increased production rate would have happened long before the kurz was even thought up.

Remember, the germans started using the MP41® right after the invasion of russia started.

Not to mention the captured ammo they would have gotten their hands on during the first 2 years of the invasion.

Sure, the use of the PPSh41 wouldn't be as widespread during 44 as it was in the earlier years due to the ammo shortage and the lack of repair parts, but they would still have been pretty common.

The problem is that the ammo production was at all time low in 1941 (38.7 million rounds a month), and quite low in 1942 (54.48 million rounds a month). On December, 1941, the existing stock of infantry ammunition was 6,000,000,000 rounds. At that time the Germans were living of eating the ammunition produced and stockpiled before the war and at wartime up to June, 1941. That ammunition had been obviously produced without taking into account a future adoption of a PPSh-41, so no extra 7,63mm ammo for the PPSh-41 had been produced.

OTOH it is clear that production during 1941 and 1942 was too low to think there was room for producing a cartridge which was used by just one weapon which was NEVER adopted as a standard weapon nor taken into account for standarization (btw the Italian Beretta M38 did and the Carcano rifle was used by the millions by the Volksturm). All resources were used for producing standard infantry rounds. When ammunition production increased in 1943 and 1944, the new kid (MKb41/MP43/MP44) was already in the block.

[Oddball_E8]

The problem is that the ammo production was at all time low in 1941 (38.7 million rounds a month), and quite low in 1942 (54.48 million rounds a month). On December, 1941, the existing stock of infantry ammunition was 6,000,000,000 rounds. At that time the Germans were living of eating the ammunition produced and stockpiled before the war and at wartime up to June, 1941. That ammunition had been obviously produced without taking into account a future adoption of a PPSh-41, so no extra 7,63mm ammo for the PPSh-41 had been produced.

OTOH it is clear that production during 1941 and 1942 was too low to think there was room for producing a cartridge which was used by just one weapon which was NEVER adopted as a standard weapon nor taken into accunt for it (the Italian Beretta M38 did OTOH). All resources were used for producing standard infantry rounds. When ammunition production increased in 1943 and 1944, the new kid (MKb41/MP43/MP44) was already in the block.

Yes, but they also captured pretty massive ammunition stocks during their first 2 years of the russian offensive (which after that became more of a defensive than offensive).

For example, they used quite alot of T-34's and ZiS-3 AT guns throughout the war and AFAIK didn't produce any ammo for them. The captured stockpiles of ammo were pretty massive during those first 2 years. So while they didn't produce massive (comparatively) amounts of ammo for the PPSh 41, they did have alot of captured ammo and supplemented that with their own produced ammo and the conversion of PPSh-41's to 9mm (which admittedly wasn't on a huge scale)

[Fernando]

Yes, but they also captured pretty massive ammunition stocks during their first 2 years of the russian offensive (which after that became more of a defensive than offensive).

For example, they used quite alot of T-34's and ZiS-3 AT guns throughout the war and AFAIK didn't produce any ammo for them. The captured stockpiles of ammo were pretty massive during those first 2 years. So while they didn't produce massive (comparatively) amounts of ammo for the PPSh 41, they did have alot of captured ammo and supplemented that with their own produced ammo and the conversion of PPSh-41's to 9mm (which admittedly wasn't on a huge scale)

How massive were those captured stockpiles?

How any rounds?

How many PPS-41 were used or were available?

Where were they deployed? At the front or the rearguard?

How much was the monthly ammunition consumption for those weapons?

Without some data any guessing quickly becomes pure speculation.

Germans already had the MP40 which was NOT produced at full capacity. It used an already produced round with huge stocks (until sometime in late 1942 at least). The fact is that MP40 production had a given quota which was more or less fulfilled. That is the reason that MP40 production was pretty constant over time:

MP40 and MP38a(i) production (monthly average then yearly production)

1941: 19,944, 239,340

1942: 17,622, 231,483

1943: 19,526, 234,311

1944: 19,048, 228,582

MP40 production in 1944 decreased then increased because it was decided to cease MP40 production (MP44s would replace all MP40’s) then it was decided to resume it at an increase monthly quota of about 25,000. OTOH production during 1943 was pretty constant from a minimum of 15,000 MP40 produced in February to a maximum of 21,000 in August, September and October.

What is the purpose of adopting a new SMG which uses different ammunition if you already has a good SMG which are NOT produced at full capacity yet?

OTOH it makes sense to good use captured weapons for security, rearguard and foreign troops who do not use lots of ammunition, so they can live of captured ammunition stocks for a pretty long time. This way you save lots of standard ammunition for the front, which is the place where it is sorely needed.

People carrying a PPSh-41 (or a SVT-40, it was pretty popular among the Germans in 1941-42), do not mean they had been issued in a standard basis and supplied with ammo produced at the Reich according to given quotas. Exceptions were everywhere. I remember Spanish Blue Division soldiers also liked using DP-28s. In Otenski a captured Soviet 122mm gun with no sight at hand was used by the guripas (Spanish “Landser” or GIs) for direct fire by aiming it through the bore.

What should CMRT portrait? The norm or the exception?

[Oddball_E8]

I'm no grog so I don't have access to the numbers.

But the PPSh-41 was widely used by germans on the eastern front, and they were actually issued with them too.

In fact, such large numbers of the weapon were captured that they started converting them to 9mm to solve the ammunition problems.

You don't start converting weapons to your main ammunition (for the weapon type) unless you actually plan on issuing them to your troops.

As for where they were being issued, it seems they were being issued wherever smg's were needed. I've seen pictures of them from the frontlines, but not alot in the rear lines (where weapons like the MP28 and other older weapons seem to show up more often).

I would love it if someone actually dug through their books about this instead of trying to dismiss it offhand.

Everywhere I read, I read that the PPSh-41 was popular and widely used by the germans. It often states that large (or even huge) numbers of the weapon and ammo were captured during the early war and issued to their troops.

It also states that there was a program to convert them to 9mm as well.

It certainly doesn't sound like it was the exception.

I've definately seen more pictures of germans with the PPSh-41 than I have with the Stg-44...

[Oddball_E8]

This is the closest I can come to actually quoting a book:

"The Encyclopedia of Weapons: From World War II to the Present Day", on the page of the PPSh-41 Russian Submachine Gun, it says near the end:

"German Service

Under such circumstances the PPSh-41 (known to its users as the 'Pah-Pah-Shah') received virtually no maintenance or even any cleaning. Under Eastern Front conditions it soon became apparent that the best way to keep the weapon going under summer dust or winter ice conditions was to keep it completely dry and free from any sort of oil, otherwise its action clogged or froze.

So many PPSh-41 submachine guns were produced that the type became a virtual standard weapon for the German army as well as the Red Army, the Germans even going to the extent of recalibring some of their captured hoard to their own 9-mm (0.354-in) Parabellum cartridge: this process required the replacement of the Soviet barrel and a housing able to accept the magazine of the MP 40. Unaltered weapons in German service received the official inventory designation Maschinepistole 717®, but the designation of recalibred weapons remains unknown. Partisan forces operating behind German lines found the PPSh-41 an ideal weapon for their purposes, and after the war the type was used by virtually every nation that came within the Soviet sphere of influence. It still turns up in the hands of 'freedom fighters' all over the world."

That certainly doesn't sound like it was a rare occurance or only used in the rear lines.

[Fernando]

I'm no grog so I don't have access to the numbers.

But the PPSh-41 was widely used by Germans on the eastern front, and they were actually issued with them too.

I remember seeing pictures of Vlassov’s ROA, Cossacks and Ostruppen carrying Soviet weapons. AFAIK Security and police troops from Russian origin also carried them, but I don’t know of German units ISSUED with those weapons.

In fact, such large numbers of the weapon were captured that they started converting them to 9mm to solve the ammunition problems.

It means there was an ammunition problem then.

What the purpose is of replacing 7.62mm barrels and 71-round drum magazines with 9mm barrels and the SAME 32-round magazines used with the MP38/MP40?

I have read Germans liked very much the high capacity drums, so replacing them with the standard capacity magazines doesn’t make sense if you want to use the PPShs at the front. OTOH it may be very useful for arming security and auxiliary police units.

You don't start converting weapons to your main ammunition (for the weapon type) unless you actually plan on issuing them to your troops.

I haven’t seen lots of pics of Germans carrying 9mm PPSh at the front. In fact I have NEVER seen one.

As for where they were being issued, it seems they were being issued wherever smg's were needed. I've seen pictures of them from the frontlines, but not a lot in the rear lines (where weapons like the MP28 and other older weapons seem to show up more often).

We know soldiers took PPSh (and SVT-40), then pics were taken, but we don’t know anything about them. Were they using the PPSh in a regular basis? For how long? Did they have an alternate German weapon?

There is a pair of pics in this thread where the soldiers have got one or more additional German weapons. In one case he carries a MP40 while he’s firing a PPSh and in the other case he has an MG, a Kar98k and a PPSh.

Everywhere I read, I read that the PPSh-41 was popular and widely used by the germans. It often states that large (or even huge) numbers of the weapon and ammo were captured during the early war and issued to their troops.

I have also read Germans learned to fire on anyone carrying a PPSh, not caring about the uniform he was wearing. PPSh = Bad guy doing bad things = I’m dead if I don’t kill him first.

[Oddball_E8]

I remember seeing pictures of Vlassov’s ROA, Cossacks and Ostruppen carrying Soviet weapons. AFAIK Security and police troops from Russian origin also carried them, but I don’t know of German units ISSUED with those weapons.

They were issued, as evidenced by the fact that the germans had Wehrmacht designations of them; MP41® for the 9mm converted ones and MP717® for the non-converted ones.

It means there was an ammunition problem then.

Yes, by 44 and 45 there certainly was. Which was true for the MP44 too, but they didn't stop using that because of ammunition problems did they?

What the purpose is of replacing 7.62mm barrels and 71-round drum magazines with 9mm barrels and the SAME 32-round magazines used with the MP38/MP40?

You answer that further down. Towards the end of the war, many germans fired on anyone with a PPSh-41 even in german uniform, because of the many partisan attacks. And the drum magazine was never that popular since it tended to deform easily (it wasn't very sturdy, as opposed to the rest of the weapon). And there was also the ease of supply if they were converted to 9mm and used MP40 magazines.

I have read Germans liked very much the high capacity drums, so replacing them with the standard capacity magazines doesn’t make sense if you want to use the PPShs at the front. OTOH it may be very useful for arming security and auxiliary police units.

They didn't like them all that much. The drums tended to deform if handled too roughly and the gun risked feed problems if you had more than 64 (I think) rounds in it. Point is that a standard capacity magazine offers many advantages over the drum magazine (The russians also produced a lower-capacity straight magazine because of this)

I haven’t seen lots of pics of Germans carrying 9mm PPSh at the front. In fact I have NEVER seen one.

I never said there were "loads" of germans photographed with the 9mm PPSh. I'm talking about the regular one. The 9mm conversion was much more rare than the regular one.

We know soldiers took PPSh (and SVT-40), then pics were taken, but we don’t know anything about them. Were they using the PPSh in a regular basis? For how long? Did they have an alternate German weapon?

It seems information on small arms used by the infantry is hard to get by. But compare it to captured T-34 tanks.

They suffered from exactly the same problems.

They were better than the german tanks in some points, worse in others.

They used ammo that wasn't being produced by the germans.

They were often fired upon by their own troops.

They were hard to maintain.

And they were still used throughout the war.

There is a pair of pics in this thread where the soldiers have got one or more additional German weapons. In one case he carries a MP40 while he’s firing a PPSh and in the other case he has an MG, a Kar98k and a PPSh.

Of course some of the pictures are of soldiers who have aquired the weapon in the field.

They wouldn't just throw away their issued weapon now would they?

We don't know the story behind those pictures.

Maby they posed for the picture.

Maby they only used the PPSH until they ran out of ammo.

Maby they only hung on to their issued weapon until they could make sure they could get supplied with ammo for the PPSH (ie. get the weapon issued to them officially)

Maby they used both throughout the war.

Who knows? It's all speculation.

I have also read Germans learned to fire on anyone carrying a PPSh, not caring about the uniform he was wearing. PPSh = Bad guy doing bad things = I’m dead if I don’t kill him first.

I answered that earlier with the T-34 reference.

The point here is that I want to hear some concrete reason as to why the PPSh 41 is never ever found in the hands of germans in the game despite seeing plenty of evidence and reading plenty of descriptions of them being used by germans on the front lines.

There seems to be no other reason than "well, we don't really think so"

Was there any research done by BFC on this?

Are they going to arbitrarily dismiss captured T-34's the same way (of course not, there are numbers backing that up, but the exact same reasonings that have been used to say that the PPSh 41 wouldn't be used on the front lines could be applied to the T-34, if those numbers hadn't been there)

[sburke]

Are they going to arbitrarily dismiss captured T-34's the same way (of course not, there are numbers backing that up, but the exact same reasonings that have been used to say that the PPSh 41 wouldn't be used on the front lines could be applied to the T-34, if those numbers hadn't been there)

One difference is that with the T 34 you can add them yourself in the editor, simple process. With the PPsH it has to be part of the ToE...or you could just give yourself some Russian guys using the same process as you would to get a T34.

To be in the ToE is not a small deal, they have to be fairly certain of how they want to add them or they have to set an option to add them in the editor which the player can then alter anytime they choose. They tend to shy away from that. There is a precedent with some of the Italian weapons appearing in German hands. Handling the ammo is another issue. Your PPsH guys tend to unload their ammo pretty darn quick. Now you have a guy with no ammo and no good way to get more.

[ASL Veteran]

The point here is that I want to hear some concrete reason as to why the PPSh 41 is never ever found in the hands of germans in the game despite seeing plenty of evidence and reading plenty of descriptions of them being used by germans on the front lines.

There seems to be no other reason than "well, we don't really think so"

Was there any research done by BFC on this?

Why is it so important that the game is broken if the Germans aren't using PPSh 41s? I'm not trying to be dismissive because it is pretty obvious that whether or not the Germans are using PPSh is a very big deal for you. I am just curious as to why they are important to you? Do you think including them would have a concrete in game impact or do you just think it's cool and would like to see them carrying them around? Seriously - the Germans used almost every weapon that was produced in Europe between the years 1900 and 1944. Why is this particular weapon so important that BFC needs to stop all work until one or two Germans per platoon can carry it around? Perhaps you are assuming there will be full German squads carrying PPSh weapons so they can go toe to toe with Soviet tank riders or something? Do you expect the German squads to carry around the different ammunition too (similar to how the Kurz ammunition is distributed now) or are you assuming the rechambered version? :confused:

[Pelican Pal]

Why is it so important that the game is broken if the Germans aren't using PPSh 41s?

I don't think he ever said the game is broken without PPSHs.

Having more weapons available is something I would like. Regardless of how much it would actually matter in a company+ sized engagement. It adds a bit more immersion and that weapon can have an important effect on the smaller tactical engagements. I mean it would be cool to have a random SL carrying a PPSH into combat.

Why is this particular weapon so important that BFC needs to stop all work until one or two Germans per platoon can carry it around?

I would be really surprised if this were the case. The precedent is already there for having squads get weapons at random. Occasionally a German squad will have 2 G43s, sometimes the assistant will have scoped K98, sometimes a squad will have MG34s instead of 42s.

It isn't a leap to say sometimes a soldier will have a PPSH.

[Oddball_E8]

Why is it so important that the game is broken if the Germans aren't using PPSh 41s? I'm not trying to be dismissive because it is pretty obvious that whether or not the Germans are using PPSh is a very big deal for you. I am just curious as to why they are important to you? Do you think including them would have a concrete in game impact or do you just think it's cool and would like to see them carrying them around? Seriously - the Germans used almost every weapon that was produced in Europe between the years 1900 and 1944. Why is this particular weapon so important that BFC needs to stop all work until one or two Germans per platoon can carry it around? Perhaps you are assuming there will be full German squads carrying PPSh weapons so they can go toe to toe with Soviet tank riders or something? Do you expect the German squads to carry around the different ammunition too (similar to how the Kurz ammunition is distributed now) or are you assuming the rechambered version? :confused:

Well, you are coming off as dismissive (as are many others).

The game is not broken because of it... Just like I wouldn't have considered it broken if the G43 wasn't in... I'd certainly ask why it wasnt in, but I wouldn't consider the game broken.

The reason it's important (more important than other captured weapons) is because it was used in such a large scale on the eastern front by the germans.

If you look through pictures from the east front on the german side, you'll see some german with a PPSh-41 in at least every 10th picture (if not more).

And it's not just for dressing, they were actually valued by the germans as sturdy and reliable weapons (which they rightfully respected).

It's not that I think the germans would get SMG units armed entirely with PPSh-41's or anything of the sort.

In fact I almost always play as the russians anyway, so it wouldn't help me if that happened.

It is simply the fact that the weapon was very numerous and often used by the germans and yet it seems glossed over by BFC as in the only comment I have read from them was along the lines of "well it was probably more common in the earlier part of the war and I imagine it was used on the rear lines".

And that sounds like nothing but pure speculation.

As for why I am so obsessed with the topic, well I have Aspergers so that's just the way I am.

[Oddball_E8]

Oh and just to add to the discussion, in 1942 soviet figures indicate that 1.5 million PPSh-41's had been produced.

That's already more than the total number of MP40's produced during the entire war.

If you pair that up with how fast the germans advanced those early years and how much they captured, you can see that they got their hands on quite alot of SMG's that the troops seems to have been more than happy to use.