When I assault a bunker, the crew comes out fighting?

[Bulletpoint]

I noticed that when you assault a bunker by placing engineers close so they throw grenades and demo charges, the crew of the bunker will storm out, all alive and well, and with guns blazing, killing several of the engineers. Surely that can't be all that realistic ?

If the throwing of grenades represents throwing grenades through vents and slits, then why doesn't this kill (at least some of) the crew?

[Vanir Ausf B]

It's like kicking an ant pile. They all come out growling and showing their teeth.

I'm not sure how realistic it is, but my experience is that assaulting bunkers can be quite costly. You need several teams, one to assault and one or more standing by to cover the assaulters.

But what is worse is if they don't come running out. My worst experience was a time when one enemy soldier stayed in the bunker after it was destroyed, shooting out at my guys who would no longer use explosives since it was officially "destroyed".

[Michael Emrys]

You need several teams, one to assault and one or more standing by to cover the assaulters.

Yep. That's the key to staying alive in most situations. You need firepower superiority and the more the merrier. Wipe 'em out—or at least thoroughly suppress them—before they have a chance to hurt any of your boys.

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

Can't suppress them, they are in a bunker after all. The suppression they get from the hand grenades doesn't seem to do anything (possibly because they are elite troops).

And I don't have many soldiers available, it was a miracle that I even managed to get two squads of engineers off the beach (Blue and Grey first mission, Omaha).

It's so frustrating, I have victory within my grasp in an almost impossible mission, just can't seem to pull it off...

Once, I actually did manage to clear one of the two strongpoints of all enemy and the three bunkers, but at that point I had 2 soldiers left, so couldn't clear out the machineguns at the Vierville Draw.

[agusto]

Do you have PIATs or something similar at your disposal? Artillery, mortars, tanks? Attacking bunkers with infantry grenades/ demo charges is always only an option if no large calibre HE is available IMO.

[Bulletpoint]

Do you have PIATs or something similar at your disposal? Artillery, mortars, tanks? Attacking bunkers with infantry grenades/ demo charges is always only an option if no large calibre HE is available IMO.

No PIAT available against this PITA. And the bunkers are invincible against all artillery I have.

[Michael Emrys]

Can't suppress them, they are in a bunker after all.

No, no, no, I mean after they come running out. Hit them with a lot of lead (a lot of lead, at least a squad's worth) and a grenade or two before they can do much damage.

Michael

[Bulletpoint]

No, no, no, I mean after they come running out. Hit them with a lot of lead (a lot of lead, at least a squad's worth) and a grenade or two before they can do much damage.

Michael

They come out guns blazing, and those damn nazi submachineguns are pretty lethal at 8 metres distance.. especially since the bunker crews are elite!

I don't have much opportunity to place my guys further away, both because they need to get close to use their grenades, and because there's limited room for maneuver.

I still dream of victory though, just haven't been able to figure out how to crack the nut yet

[Lethaface]

I've given up this mission after one real try (and some mishaps ). The MG changes after 2.0 seem to have made it too realistic

In other CMx2 missions I didn't find bunkers too hard to take out. They can be a PITA indeed, if you only have INF and have to sneak around the sides. Bunkers can be suppressed though, and smoke helps to sneak to the side/back in order to close assault it with grenades and or satchels.

[Fizou]

Soon we will have flamethrowers to deal with bunkers

[Bulletpoint]

Soon we will have flamethrowers to deal with bunkers

Well, if the guys in the bunker can survive grenades and demo charges being thrown in, why not also survive flame throwers?

[YankeeDog]

I assume these comments are related to your playthrough of the Omaha Beach scenario.

IIRC, the bunker crews in that scenario are high quality (Veteran or higher) to make them more effective with their MGs (which was an issue in CMBN 1.x when this scenario was made, not so much in CMBN 2.x).

You're basically dealing with bunkers crewed by a group of Sgt. Rocks (or Feldwebel Rock, as the case may be). Expect them to go down swinging.

Against bunkers with more normal quality crews, they can still be a danger when they abandon, but not to the same degree; usually a Breach team (with a bazooka or demos) to KO the bunker, and a nearby assault team with an SMG or two to cut down the crew will do the job with minimal losses.

[Bulletpoint]

I assume these comments are related to your playthrough of the Omaha Beach scenario.

IIRC, the bunker crews in that scenario are high quality (Veteran or higher) to make them more effective with their MGs (which was an issue in CMBN 1.x when this scenario was made, not so much in CMBN 2.x).

You're basically dealing with bunkers crewed by a group of Sgt. Rocks (or Feldwebel Rock, as the case may be). Expect them to go down swinging.

Against bunkers with more normal quality crews, they can still be a danger when they abandon, but not to the same degree; usually a Breach team (with a bazooka or demos) to KO the bunker, and a nearby assault team with an SMG or two to cut down the crew will do the job with minimal losses.

I understand the point about elite bunker crews putting up a fight, and that's a very fair point, but shouldn't they die anyway when hand grenades are thrown in?

Maybe I misunderstand the way bunkers were cleared in reality... but I always thought that grenading or demo-charging a bunker meant that the crew would be killed or unconscious in the process.

Most of this game works so very well and appears very plausible and realistic, that when something seems odd, it really sticks out.

[LiveNoMore]

I have found that bunkers are very tough to take out. My friend and I are playing a scenario now where wood bunkers are taking numerous direct hits from 105mm Priests and not showing any damage. The crews are all alive and happily taking out any exposed infantry. The 75mm Shermans are also inefficient against them. One cement bunker had it's crew killed off with a couple of 105 hits. A couple have finally gone down with multiple 105 and 75 hits. But these last three wooden bunkers are almost indestructible. One has taken 2-3 hits per turn for the last 7 turns. The crew hasn't lost a single guy.

[Erwin]

It may have something to do with how the bunkers are situated in terrain. I found it easy to take out some bunkers in Nijmegan campaign using massed small arms fire or using 75mm and Firefly tanks.

[womble]

I have found that bunkers are very tough to take out. My friend and I are playing a scenario now where wood bunkers are taking numerous direct hits from 105mm Priests and not showing any damage. The crews are all alive and happily taking out any exposed infantry. The 75mm Shermans are also inefficient against them. One cement bunker had it's crew killed off with a couple of 105 hits. A couple have finally gone down with multiple 105 and 75 hits. But these last three wooden bunkers are almost indestructible. One has taken 2-3 hits per turn for the last 7 turns. The crew hasn't lost a single guy.

That's really odd. Last time I faced wooden bunkers, they were cleared out by either application of the lead broom, or 60mm mortar fire. And that was before the MG buff. Wooden bunkers aren't quite deathtraps, but they're not much tougher than a modular building.

[Fizou]

I have found wooden bunkers to be quite a challenge in the US Triona campaign in CMFI. It was made before the MG buff so that explains the crew being very resilient after exiting their bunkers.

Its extra tough when all of the bunker occupants have MP40s. But one learns from mistakes so once I have cut the bunker off I will move up the appropriate teams to deal with them. Preferably engineers to blow it up and SMG carrying inf to finish off the exiting enemy.

Well, if the guys in the bunker can survive grenades and demo charges being thrown in, why not also survive flame throwers?

I just tried it in RT and seems to work just as I thought . Im sure the effect will carry over just the same once 3.0 is avvailable to CMBN and CMFI.

[Bulletpoint]

That's really odd. Last time I faced wooden bunkers, they were cleared out by either application of the lead broom, or 60mm mortar fire. And that was before the MG buff. Wooden bunkers aren't quite deathtraps, but they're not much tougher than a modular building.

I suggest you try a bunker scenario again after installing the latest patch

[womble]

I suggest you try a bunker scenario again after installing the latest patch

I just did. It took less than 30s for 5 MMGs to eliminate a Scout team in a wooden bunker, from the front. From rear aspect fire, there was a "lucky" kill in the first minute, but nothing in the next five, at which point I got bored.

The lead broom still works on wooden bunkers, and significantly better than on Modular buildings. A scout team in a modular building wasn't even spotted for the first minute, and when they were given an area fire order, only 3 /5 of the guns spotted them, and no casualites were caused, with the fire petering out as the scout team were pinned and they dropped out of sight. Setting the 5 guns to area fire on the house (and I trust the AI to explicitly target any heads that pop up) mostly kept the scouts' heads down, but didn't cause any casualties in a couple of minutes fire. Modular Building >>> Wooden Bunker vs rifle-calibre autofire.

Edit: in fact, being in a wooden bunker is probably worse for your health than hiding behind a concealment-but-no-cover hedge...

[Bulletpoint]

Ah, my mistake - didn't notice you said "wooden" bunker.

[womble]

It makes little difference. 5xUS M1919A4s firing at a concrete shelter bunker KOed it in the third minute, having killed one of the occupants. By the end of the third minute another was dead having exited to the rear, and the third is cowering, pinned and liable to get shot like the other guy forced out of the destroyed bunker even though there's a blockhouse foundation between him and his assailants. The pTruppen manning the bunker were (arbitrarily) +1 Morale, +1 leadership, have never been pinned (even immediately after losing a man) and were "Nervous" with their suppression meter at the top of the orange. They were not cowering, and their icon was not the translucent of "uncontrolled". Still, they might have decided the bunker was an unhealthy place to be and gone all "self-preservation", but passengers dismounting a jeep doesn't leave it destroyed, does it?

No HE has ever gotten close to this bunker. Just a thousand or so rounds of .30-06. Yet it is "Destroyed" by rifle calibre bullets when 40+ direct 5" hits can't scratch it. Shurely Shum Mishtake.

I noticed that there was a pretty much continuous "Penetration" hit text. The bullet trajectories often seemed to go right through the bunker and out the back. When it was a wooden bunker, even though it had the protective value of damp tissue paper, there were no hit texts at all.

Time for a mass test.

[womble]

So I ran a little test.

14 lanes separated from each other by high bocage.

1 concrete shelter bunker in each lane, with a scout team in each bunker (except 1). No C2.

5 M1917A1 HMGs plus their ammo bearers at 220-250m range.

After minute 1

2 bunkers with 1 casualty

1 bunker with 1 casualty, Shaken - lower soft stats on this one.

1 bunker Destroyed, at the 26s mark. This was the one I didn't put a scout team in.

The rest have low orange/high yellow suppression meters.

After minute 2

3 more Destroyed. 2 burning. None of the "Destroyed" events caused additional crew casualties, but none of the crew have yet escaped (one got destroyed in the last few seconds of the turn and it's taken up to 20 for them to be shot in place previously).

3 other bunkers have one or 2 casualties.

The other 7 have either no casualties or a yellow silhouette wounded guy, and are OK at low levels of suppression, even the -1 Morale teams.

No teams have elected to leave their shelter, which is wise considering the leadstorm headed their way.

The HMG teams are burning through about 100 rounds per minute.

And so it continues.

There was one "destruction" event which took out its crew in the same instant. So some of these might be because of a stored ammo cookoff. I'm going to test to see whether getting rid of the ammo stores stops the "Destroyed by rifles" thing.

[akd]

No HE has ever gotten close to this bunker. Just a thousand or so rounds of .30-06. Yet it is "Destroyed" by rifle calibre bullets when 40+ direct 5" hits can't scratch it. Shurely Shum Mishtake.

Not really (or at least not a mistake specific to the bunker). Keep in mind that bunkers are treated as super-heavy, immobile AFVs with a permanently open "hatch". A King Tiger can take unlimited hits of small caliber AP to its front glacis, but if a hatch is open and a rifle bullet penetrates, there is a tiny chance that penetration can result in a KO (I've only seen this happen once with a tank, but it fairly common with more open AFV types).

[Lethaface]

So I ran a little test.

14 lanes separated from each other by high bocage.

1 concrete shelter bunker in each lane, with a scout team in each bunker (except 1). No C2.

5 M1917A1 HMGs plus their ammo bearers at 220-250m range.

After minute 1

2 bunkers with 1 casualty

1 bunker with 1 casualty, Shaken - lower soft stats on this one.

1 bunker Destroyed, at the 26s mark. This was the one I didn't put a scout team in.

The rest have low orange/high yellow suppression meters.

After minute 2

3 more Destroyed. 2 burning. None of the "Destroyed" events caused additional crew casualties, but none of the crew have yet escaped (one got destroyed in the last few seconds of the turn and it's taken up to 20 for them to be shot in place previously).

3 other bunkers have one or 2 casualties.

The other 7 have either no casualties or a yellow silhouette wounded guy, and are OK at low levels of suppression, even the -1 Morale teams.

No teams have elected to leave their shelter, which is wise considering the leadstorm headed their way.

The HMG teams are burning through about 100 rounds per minute.

And so it continues.

There was one "destruction" event which took out its crew in the same instant. So some of these might be because of a stored ammo cookoff. I'm going to test to see whether getting rid of the ammo stores stops the "Destroyed by rifles" thing.

.30-06 actually destroying bunkers (no KO'ing) is indeed strange Ammo cookoffs sound like an explanation, apart from bunkers not having any ammo available?

Did you try any tests with anything else than a scout team, for example a full squad?

[womble]

Not really (or at least not a mistake specific to the bunker). Keep in mind that bunkers are treated as super-heavy, immobile AFVs with a permanently open "hatch". A King Tiger can take unlimited hits of small caliber AP to its front glacis, but if a hatch is open and a rifle bullet penetrates, there is a tiny chance that penetration can result in a KO (I've only seen this happen once with a tank, but it fairly common with more open AFV types).

So every vehicle has to have a non-zero chance of being destroyed on a penetrating hit? It's a bunker, not a piece of precision engineering with flammable fluids and overstressed critical components. Does a jeep have the same chance of being destroyed on a penetrating hit as a KT? No. So evidently the chance can vary by vehicle. So why can't/isn't it set to zero?

I've just run a test where one of the 14 bunkers was Destroyed within six (count them: six) seconds of the start including the time it took for the MGs to spot, Aim and begin firing. And that was after I'd loaded the ammo onto a spare team during set up and carted it out of harm's way. So basically, a big empty box made of 2' thick concrete was made useless as shelter, and uninhabitable by a couple of dozen rounds. Preposterous. Even if there is a technical "pseudo-explanation". This isn't some isolated one-in-a-million thing. Sure, I'm running some pretty fierce fire at the bunkers in these tests, but all that's doing is shortening the interval so I don't have to exhaust one MG's ammo store to do it.

Since bunkers are a) easily spotted, don't get un-spotted like suppressed infantry targets do and c) high priority targets for the TacAI, this sort of intense fire actually isn't that uncommon in Market Garden settings with 3-SAW US paratroop squads. It flat-out shouldn't be possible, but it's inevitable (the half life for the sample so far is 7 minutes/35 HMG-minutes). If this reflected RL, there wouldn't have been any need to bring 155mm SPART into DF to reduce bunkers; just roll up the MG platoon.