3.0 upgrade & Heavy AA Guns

[jakla1027]

With the addition of AA guns being able to shoot at aircraft in version 3.0, will heavy AA guns also be able to engage aircraft? Guns like the German 88mm or Russian 85mm? Or just the light AA platforms able to engage air targets?

Another quick question, how will we know if our AA guns have shot down a plane? In the post battle summary only or will we be able to tell in battle?

Thanks

[womble]

I don't think an 88 or equivalent is capable of engaging a CAS aircraft at low level. The rate of angular and range change of the target is simply too great for such heavy beasts to track. "Flak" shells were timed to burst at the altitude of the bomber formations they were meant to protect against. The Allies had proximity fuses in the late war, but it wasn't until December '44 (which we've not reached in any x2 game yet) that they were permitted for use in any place where duds could be recovered by the enemy, which certainly includes the CM battlespace. A brief Google doesn't mention their use in the ETO near the front lines in an AA capacity, either, only as fuses to generate airbursts in ground-to-ground Arty. Not that that means it wasn't used in the AA batteries. Still, the shell has to get near its target to be effective, and I don't think the aiming/tracking capabilities of the WW2 heavy AA pieces were up to the job of engaging small, fast, nimble fighter-bombers.

[Battlefront.com]

Correct. Those guns were designed to take out slower moving higher altitude aircraft. The way they worked was to put up a "box" of metal fragments in the path of the aircraft, not hit it directly. This required many guns firing many rounds in a highly coordinate fashion. Direct hits were very uncommon and purely by accident. The chances of a single 88mm Flak hitting a fighter or diver bomber are close enough to zero to be treated as zero.

Steve

[YankeeDog]

There would be some justification for allowing heavy AAA to fire on dive bombers specifically in CMx2/WWII games, since a dive bomber must approach the target from 3,000m+. This most definitely puts dive bombers into the target zone of heavy AAA as they approach the target.

However, effective medium- to high-altitude AAA requires more than just big guns. In general, the higher the altitude, the more the AAA needs to be tied into complex systems which track and estimate target vector, altitude, wind and other weather conditions at height etc., in order to lay accurate fire on approaching aircraft.

There were cases where heavy AAA deployed in battery for their nominative role got involved in ground fights, but these were the exceptions. Usually, if heavy AAA was close to the line of contact on the ground, it was because the guns were deliberately being deployed as ad hoc ground weapons, and in this case they would not be set up and "tied in" for the AAA role. Basically, the guns could really only do one job at a time: either they were dispersed and set up with good cover for use as an AT weapon, or they were clustered and set up in areas with a good view of the sky for as an AAA weapon.

So I think it's a good thing that heavy AAA is kept as a ground fire only asset in CMx2. It would be complex and difficult to model when and how heavy AAA should be allowed to engage aircraft, and many players would probably find it confusing if there were all sorts of rules for deploying AAA in the AAA role vs. the ground role.

[Battlefront.com]

That's a good point. If they are behind the lines they could be tied into a larger AA defensive plan. But up front? Clearly they are there in a ground role, not an AA role.

Steve

[jakla1027]

Thanks for the responses guys!

So how do we we know if our light AA has downed an enemy CAS aircraft? Can AA even shoot down enemy aircraft in game, or is it mainly used to harass & drive them off the battlefield?

Thanks again!

[sburke]

yeah I had one get shot down and crash right into a Tank covered with Tank riders. Wiped out the whole lot.

Oh wait- no I didn't, I was just day dreaming while waiting for a game to load.

[LukeFF]

That's a good point. If they are behind the lines they could be tied into a larger AA defensive plan. But up front? Clearly they are there in a ground role, not an AA role.

So, I assume both the German 88 and the Soviet 85mm guns will be ground-fire guns only in CMRT. Will there be any other heavy AA guns in CMFI and CMBN that will eventually be ground-fire only as well?

[Fizou]

So, I assume both the German 88 and the Soviet 85mm guns will be ground-fire guns only in CMRT. Will there be any other heavy AA guns in CMFI and CMBN that will eventually be ground-fire only as well?

Im guessing nothing bigger than 37 mm will fire skywards. But what about pintle mount MG, of various calibres. Will they be able to fire at aircraft or is it only dedicated AA weapons that will do this?

[jakla1027]

Im guessing nothing bigger than 37 mm will fire skywards. But what about pintle mount MG, of various calibres. Will they be able to fire at aircraft or is it only dedicated AA weapons that will do this?

Good question, especially for the V3.0 upgrade for CMBN & CMFI with all of those American tanks with pintle mounted .50 cals.

[Michael Emrys]

Im guessing nothing bigger than 37 mm will fire skywards.

What about 40mm Bofors?

Michael

[Fizou]

What about 40mm Bofors?

Michael

Correct again mr E. Nothing bigger than 40 then?

[Splinty]

That's a good question about Sherman .50s. Will German armor start having pintle mounted MG 34s as AA weapons too?

[Skwabie]

And what about shoulder mounted machine guns?!

[YankeeDog]

What about 40mm Bofors?

Michael

Did not play any significant role on the East Front; the Soviets used a version of the weapon, but modified it to their 37mm caliber.

I think it's a reasonable assumption that when the 3.0 upgrade is released for CMBN & CMFI, the 40mm Bofors will be capable of AA fire.

[Michael Emrys]

I think it's a reasonable assumption that when the 3.0 upgrade is released for CMBN & CMFI, the 40mm Bofors will be capable of AA fire.

That's what my question was directed to.

Michael

[MikeyD]

What about 40mm Bofors?

Russian 37mm AA essentially is the Bofors gun with the bore reduced to the 'standard' 37mm size. No screenshots available because the thing was only skinned last week.