Ostfront June '44 to May '45. Is one family enough?

[Sequoia]

I was considering the scope of the last year of the War in the East and the fact that the equivalant in the West is going to take two Families: Normany and Bulge. Will one Family be enough for the Easterns front's last year? I understand that an Eastfront game will probably not sell as well as the Western Front games and perhaps for some, one game Family with the Soviets having overwhelming operational superiority over the Germans is enough, but there is just so MUCH happening on the Eastern front on such a scale I think that if Battlefront wanted to there's certainly enough material for two families.

[Sergei]

I think one thing that matters here is that CMBN was the first WW2 game in the CMx2 series, and as such it required a lot of groundbreaking work that helps with follow up titles: once you have all the Panther models and Wehrmacht helmets done, it becomes easier to use them elsewhere (CMBB benefited from the same to some extent, doing a 1941-45 game must have been easier when you had research done for Germans 1944-45 at least). I would rather put this in the way that the first title had to be more modest in overall scope because it was all virgin territory, not that Red Thunder has a wider timeframe because it doesn't interest anyone.

What I'd like to know though is what new things will the Bulge game offer that matches CMFI and CMRT and surpasses CMBN, considering that it only covers October to May and much of the TO&E is already familiar to CM fans? Not that I doubt it will sell well (and also be a quality title), after all if a wargame developer wants to sell well his first go-to is Normandy, the second is the Bulge.

[kensal]

I suppose part of the answer for Bulge might lie in the fact that making it a standalone game means that new purchasers do not need to have bought Normandy as a base game in order to play it.

That might be a fair outcome for new purchasers who never bought Normandy and don't want to, but want Bulge.

Rightly though the question for people who have bought Normandy, CW and MG and pay to upgrade that to ver 3.0 when it comes out, is what Bulge will offer in terms of new content. Seems to me it is, compared to what Normandy offered in content, somewhat limited:

Autumn and winter weathers and terrains

New maps

Volksgrenadiers

Belgian and German building models

A limited amount of new vehicle types

Err...

There's probably lots more in reality but for an existing customer, it seems more like material for a further module as opposed to a whole new game.

[Battlefront.com]

It's a combo of things. Part of it is what Sergei said, part of it is what Kensal said. There's a lot of work to make the Ardennes seem like the Ardennes, then a lot more work to make Germany seem like Germany. We felt it was too much to make just one Family. Having said that, I do agree it's not a cut and dried case as would be something like Italy and Normandy being different Families.

Steve

[76mm]

Will one Family be enough for the Easterns front's last year?

I guess it depends on how much they cram into each game and module? I think they could get in most of the content I'd want to see in the base game plus a module or two, then a pack for some random stuff.

On the other hand, it seems to me like the West front is sliced too finely--as someone mentioned, I'm not sure why the Bulge should be a separate game rather than a module, other than the fact that they probably expect it to sell well, so would like to take advantage of it.

But the way I look at it is that the west front games are subsidizing and speeding up the East Front games by creating most of the necessary German content, so I don't mind.

[Sequoia]

I suppose part of the answer for Bulge might lie in the fact that making it a standalone game means that new purchasers do not need to have bought Normandy as a base game in order to play it.

That might be a fair outcome for new purchasers who never bought Normandy and don't want to, but want Bulge.

Rightly though the question for people who have bought Normandy, CW and MG and pay to upgrade that to ver 3.0 when it comes out, is what Bulge will offer in terms of new content. Seems to me it is, compared to what Normandy offered in content, somewhat limited:

Autumn and winter weathers and terrains

New maps

Volksgrenadiers

Belgian and German building models

A limited amount of new vehicle types

Err...

There's probably lots more in reality but for an existing customer, it seems more like material for a further module as opposed to a whole new game.

Realistic deep snow fighting. Perhaps not Donnor Party deep but deep enough to make winter fighting significantly different then what we've seen in CM:FI so far.

[ratdeath]

One family or many families, it's a great time to be a Combat Mission fan with all the base games and modules that battlefront release each year. Not to forget the upgrades of previous families

Life is good for CMx2 fans!

[Glubokii Boy]

Will the future eastern front base-games be 'locked' to a specific year (jan 41 to dec 41 and jan 42 to dec 42 etc...) ?

IIRC i read that in some trhead a while back...

Or will they be more centered on a major operations ?

hopefully the later. Othervise you will need like two basegames to simulate things like the battle for Moscow or Stalingrad for example...

[76mm]

IIRC the games will run mid-year to mid-year (ie, June 44-May 45), etc. This takes into account when new equipment was typically introduced and the beginning of the campaigning season.

[Erwin]

Am hoping that once we get to the early 1941-42 era that we may return to the North Africa theatre since (at least) all of the German stuff will have been done.

[LUCASWILLEN05]

I see no reason an EF game would not sell at least as well as Normandy. At least n miniatures wargaming the Russian Front is hugely popular. I don't think wo families of games would be needed to cover 1944 - 5 though. As Market Garden has shown it should be practicable to model the different architectures involved. So BF should be able to produce modules covering Roumania/Hungary, Poland and Germany itself. And I am sure that simply adding new formations such as Volksgrenadiers will present very few problems for them. And we already know from CMFI that they can support winter warfare. The current plan of Russian Front 1941 - 2 (Barbarossa), 1942 - 3 (Case Blau to 3rd Kharkov), 1943 - 4 (Kursk, the Dneper Line and the First Soviet invasion of Roumania) and the 1944 - 5 (Bagaration) family seems as sensible an approach as any

[Sequoia]

BFC has always said CMBO sold better than CMBB even though CMBB was a bigger and better game. I would assume and I bet they are too the same will hold true for East front vs West in CMX2.

To address some points. Many thought the Market-Garden module wouldn't have enough in it to warrent a purchase until after they saw everything that would be included in it. I think that will hold true for the Bulge Family but it could also hold true for additional Eastfront

'44-45 material.

What I mean is each of the following would have enough in it to justify a module:

Army Group South: SS, Luftwaffe and Fallschirmjaegers, Lendlease vehicles for the Soviets.

Other Axis: Finns, Hungarians and Romanians. Partisans

January '45 offensive: Winter warfare on the Eastern Frint. Later war vehicles and Poles.

Late War South; Budapest, Spring Awakening and into Austria.

Battle for Berlin

Battlepacks

Now I really don't think we'll get all these, but I would say that theoretically it would not be overkill.

[Battlefront.com]

IIRC the games will run mid-year to mid-year (ie, June 44-May 45), etc. This takes into account when new equipment was typically introduced and the beginning of the campaigning season.

Exactly correct. This not only accounts for the equipment but also the organizational changes. Most were made in Spring for the Summer offensives or were made in the Fall for the Winter offensives. Changes made during either Summer or Winter were not uniformly applied because the units were busy fighting and did not have opportunities to reorganize.

This strategy also allows us to stay focused on ONE season for the Base Game. This is always a good thing to do since it gives all of us a more solid, polished base to work up from. Trying to do too much at once is rarely a good idea!

I see no reason an EF game would not sell at least as well as Normandy. At least n miniatures wargaming the Russian Front is hugely popular.

The more dedicated the wargamer, the more likely he is to value the Eastern Front. The thing is CM appeals to a MUCH larger group. And therefore the Eastern Front, relatively speaking, isn't as popular as it is to hardcore miniaturists and wargamers in general.

BFC has always said CMBO sold better than CMBB even though CMBB was a bigger and better game. I would assume and I bet they are too the same will hold true for East front vs West in CMX2.

That is our prediction, though we think CMRT will do a bit better proportional to CMBN than CMBB did to CMBO. It will be interesting to see how that plays out

To address some points. Many thought the Market-Garden module wouldn't have enough in it to warrent a purchase until after they saw everything that would be included in it. I think that will hold true for the Bulge Family but it could also hold true for additional Eastfront

'44-45 material.

Absolutely. The folks who complained were mostly doing so by counting up line items on one list and comparing it to another list, then making a conclusion that "there isn't enough". As it turns out, as it so often does, in this case the value of the whole is often greater than the sum of its parts.

Having said that, we are intensely aware and sensitive to making each release packed with enough stuff that few who are interested in the topic won't feel taken advantage of.

Steve

[A Canadian Cat]

That is our prediction, though we think CMRT will do a bit better proportional to CMBN than CMBB did to CMBO. It will be interesting to see how that plays out

Interesting. Can you share why you think there will be a proportional change? Also on the subject of prediction: has the number of pre-orders been a good predictor for over all sales? What I mean is if you look at the pre-orders for CMBN and for CMFI and the sales in say the first n months is there a good correlation?