East Front literature!

[Los]

I too am enjoying "Into Oblivion", lots of good detail as well as human interest. Makes me want to see courdoroy roads and makeshift bridge terrain types in CMRT.

[Myles Keogh]

I'm not a Glantz fan. With exception of "When Titans Clashed," I got rid of the rest of his books that I owned. While I admire his research, his writing style is mind-numbingly dull.

The best description of Glantz that I've heard is that of a "Mr. Spock" of the Ost Front: "all facts, no spirit." If you're uber-passionate about certain East Front campaigns then you'll enjoy his work. However, if you're looking for a well-written and entertaining read then I'd pass on Glantz.

There are historians who can put together a well-researched and entertaining reads on the Eastern Front: Douglas Nash's "Hell's Gate" and Joel Hayward's "Stopped at Stalingrad" are both terrific.

Then you have "pop history." Anthony Beevor's "Stalingrad" has arguably replaced William Craig's "Enemy at the Gates" as the best popular book on the subject. Beevor is certainly not going to warm the hearts of grogs, but he's a terrific writer. His "The Fall of Berlin" is also good. Sir Max Hastings' book on the last months of the war, "Armageddon," is an entertaining read that deals heavily with the Soviet advance into Germany. And then there is Cornelius Ryan's "The Last Battle" which was one of the first books by a western writer to detail the Battle of Berlin.

John Erickson's two volume history, "The Road to Stalingrad" and "The Road to Berlin," are a bit dated, but still stand tall as among the best written on the Russian Campaign.

Finally, "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer is a true classic. Although there is apparently some controversy whether it's true or not, the book is one of the most harrowing and descriptive about the life of an ordinary German (Alsatian) combat soldier fighting Ivan.

[Ssnake51]

Heres a nice Lecture of Mr. Glantz

Thanks for the link.

Am very impressed with Glantz's work. Fortunately many of his books are now available in the Kindle format.

[Michael Emrys]

While I admire [Glantz's] research, his writing style is mind-numbingly dull.

I am compelled to admit I agree with both points. I've begun two or three of his books, only to put them aside before I've finished them. They are chock full of valuable information for the really dedicated historian, but I don't believe that casual readers are included in his target audience.

Michael

[Broadsword56]

This novel almost never gets mentioned anymore, since it was first published in the late 1940s and is long out of print. But Plievier's novel is the real deal -- a no holds barred story of the German side of the cauldron, from the POV of some long-suffering troops in a penal battalion:

http://www.amazon.com/Stalingrad-Theodore-Plievier/dp/0881841080

This is one of those antiwar war novels, like All Quiet on the Western Front.

But Plievier made the effort to capture what it was like, interviewing many participants right after the war.

The author was a German communist who fled to the USSR when the Nazis came to power, and did propaganda for the Soviets during the war years. But once Germany was defeated, his disillusionment for the Soviet system led him to live the rest of his life in exile.

It's interesting to read a novel by a German who intimately understands the German POV, and yet isn't writing from a pro-German stance. But while his sympathies are with the Soviets the novel refrains (mostly) from cheesy propaganda.

Anyway, it's a good read if you (like me) want muddy-boots stories on the human level and can't stand those dry map-exercie books with nothing but troop movements and timetables.

[76mm]

Well, since the thread is called East Front Literature, perhaps more novels are in order. Vasily Grossman's novel "Life and Fate" is also centered around Stalingrad:

http://www.amazon.com/Life-Orange-Inheritance-Vasily-Grossman-ebook/dp/B007WL0LFY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1391896084&sr=8-1&keywords=life+and+fate

I haven't read it read, but I've heard it is very good. The author was a famous Sov war correspondent and was in Stalingrad for most of the battle.

[Kenzie]

Finally, "The Forgotten Soldier" by Guy Sajer is a true classic. Although there is apparently some controversy whether it's true or not, the book is one of the most harrowing and descriptive about the life of an ordinary German (Alsatian) combat soldier fighting Ivan.

I've read this book as well, and it's pretty good. According to the wiki article for it, it seems mostly accurate. One of the author's harshest critics, a veteran of the Großdeutschland division, later recanted everything he said about him. Other veterans have said the book was accurate as well. I would expect some things to be wrong or dates mixed up as he was only 16 years old when he joined the war, and wrote the book decades later. He later became a comic book artist, and drew comics/graphic novels about the war. Too bad they are only in French though.

Recently I've been reading Russia at War by Alexander Werth. The author was a British journalist, but he was born in Russia, spoke native Russian and lived there throughout the entire war, except at the beginning of 1942. He visited the front lines, interviewed Russian generals and things like that. It's a huge book, over a thousand pages long and it covers the whole war in general. It's an interesting read.

[Collingwood]

I have read "Life and Fate" (as well as other Grossman books), and there is a saying that you don't so much read it as go through an experience. It does have scenes in Stalingrad and main characters are involved in the battle, but there is also civilian work life, domestic life, relationships... it is a wonderful work of literature and definitely worth a read - if you like Literature with a capital L.

A writer at war - Vasily Grossman with the Red Army 1941-1945 is great too.

Regardless of authenticity arguments, "The Forgotten Soldier" is a great book. I couldn't put it down.

I agree with what others here say about the readability of Glantz. If you want to design historically accurate operational or strategic battles on the eastern front then he's definitely worth investing in. For me Glantz is more for reference, less for reading. I have read several of his works, some of them simply numbed me with a seemingly endless roll call of unit names and locations.

There is no shortage of course of German viewpoints of the EF, and despite the excuse making by the author I really enjoyed von Manstein's "Lost Victories", it really gives you an idea of how traumatic it must have been at the divisional and higher level, trying to plug the flood. Like a dyke with more holes than you have fingers.

And for the very bitter end, a couple that haven't been mentioned yet are by Tony le Tissier - "Slaughter at Halbe - the destruction of hitler's 9th army" and "The Battle of Berlin 1945".

There have been many many excellent East front history books in the last few years, we're a bit spoilt for choice these days.

[John Kettler]

I personally believe that when it comes to both quality of research and clarity, Radey and Sharp mopped with floor with Glantz in their The Defense of Moscow 1941 . And they're writing at the operational and operational-strategic level as well, so it's apples to apples when comparing them. with Glantz Unlike Glantz, what they write is readable. In my view, the easiest Glantz monograph or book to read is his The Soviet Airborne Experience. The link's below, but what you really want is the physical 8.5" x 11" book, which has a slew of foldout maps covering various actions. Parachutists are cool, but how much cooler in conjunction with cavalry ands partisans?

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/glantz.pdf

Forgotten Soldier is, was, and ever shall be a great war memoir cum novel. But there's another war novel. Series of novels. Highly controversial writer and topics. With much of the unforgettable action am Ost.

Sven Hassel and his soul-searing Germans of 2nd Platoon! Hassel, who'd earned both the Iron Cross Second Class and First Class as a German soldier in WW II, died in 2012, but before he did, he penned 14 asserted to be fact based war novels, translated into 25 languages. With 53 million books sold before his death, his body of war literature may well occupy a niche which no other author can effectively contest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sven_Hassel

Joseph Porta is one of the key members of the purported Panzer armed (been many decades) penal unit in which and to which most the the action takes place, and his love of food and unique way of speaking make him unforgettable. The recipe for making mashed potatoes and diced pork shows this very well. May generate Pavlovian response!

http://www.svenhassel.net/portacooking.html

That these books are in fact literature shows up, in the clearest possible terms, from glowing book reviews girdling the globe. To be placed in the same sphere as All Quiet On the Western Front and Homer's depiction of the battle of Troy; to surpass Hemingway's A Farewell to Arms is no light thing, and Hassel's war novels weren't received by reviewers as penny dreadfuls but as blistering indictments of the cruelty and horrors of war; as brilliant pieces of writing.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Crinius]

I have another question. While getting gradually in the mood for RT I dug out my old CMBB Strategy Guide from Mark H. Walker which I bought here at BF. My question, will the tactics described in there still be usefull in RT?

[John Kettler]

Crinius,

I suspect that in broad terms it'll continue to be useful. Firepower is still firepower. Armor is still armor. Ground pressure is still ground pressure, and power to weight ratio is still power to weight ratio. Firepower. Protection. Mobility. The triangle in which all AFV designs must fall.

I'd expect changes primarily on the firepower and armor sides of things. I believe we now have much more granular modeling of the whole direct fire kill chain (Pd besed on target exposure, redefinition of Spotting criteria, including addressing contributory issues, such as episcopes, periscopes and other matters); a better handle on projectile-target interactions (refined knowledge base), as well as a greater and more explicit understanding of the dynamics of penetration and the resulting damage. I'd expect quite a few people over at BFC have been poring through their data bases, scrutinizing test results, adjusting algorithms and similar activities. Each game refinement, let alone full engine change, greatly increases what must be addressed as we move more and more in the sim direction. We're already well past the point where what we already have is of real utility for military training and analysis. We hit that benchmark with CMAK for CMx1. We hit it again with CMSF, and I have no doubt we're going to be in places many militaries wish they were in terms of warfare simulation.

The above said, the CMBB Strategy Guide will continue to be useful as a guide. Unit organizations will probably be about the same, if the unit's depicted in CMBB. But the deterministic outcome of yore where X firepower factors will be produced by Y unit at Z range is long gone. Therefore, the basis of numerous wargame CMx1 victories is now just an indicator of relative unit capabilities and performance when it comes to infantry.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Crinius,

Please disregard my reply. I managed to miss the "RT" in your question, attempted to delete the whole post, but was undone by the timer.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Crinius]

Crinius,

Please disregard my reply. I managed to miss the "RT" in your question, attempted to delete the whole post, but was undone by the timer.

Regards,

John Kettler

Nevertheless thx for taking the time answering me :-)

[John Kettler]

Crinius,

Your reply both cracked me up and touched me. Thanks for the acknowledgement.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wodin]

I have his Stalingrad, Berlin and Moscow books.. great reads.

The Forsaken Army is a great memoir\novel by H Gerlach (He was in Stalingrad and this is his story)

76mm and Collingwood I found Life and Fate abit hard going, but Beevors A Writer at War is a great book on the author.

The Volga Rises in Europe is another good read by Malaparte

Doctor at Stalingrad by H Dibold.

Blood red snow by G Koschorrek is worth a read.

Another book that may or may not be a memoir is But not for the Fuehrer by H Jung, either way I enjoyed it. Poor reviews at Amazon. If you go into it as a cracking novel then you wont be disappointed.

Berlin Dance of Death by H Altner is a great memoir of his time fighting in Berlin.

Siege by R Schneider I found a good read but it has poor reviews over at Amazon. A novel set in Colhm and then Velikiye Luki.

Shades of Grey by A Naujuks is another memoir I'd recommend.

Eastern Inferno by M Kunze is a recent memoir I bought. Again I recommend it.

If you want a great film noir detective novel set in Germany during the war I can't recommend Berlin Noir by P Kerr enough. This is his omnibus of the first three Bernie Gunther novels and I really enjoyed them alot. Several germane Nazi elite appear in it.

Finally a very difficult novel to read but enthralling at the same time is The Kindly Ones by J Little.

As for Glantz, though you can't argue with the man I do find his work very very dry. I prefer more of a narrative type of history and Jason D Marks hits the spot.

This novel almost never gets mentioned anymore, since it was first published in the late 1940s and is long out of print. But Plievier's novel is the real deal -- a no holds barred story of the German side of the cauldron, from the POV of some long-suffering troops in a penal battalion:

http://www.amazon.com/Stalingrad-Theodore-Plievier/dp/0881841080

This is one of those antiwar war novels, like All Quiet on the Western Front.

But Plievier made the effort to capture what it was like, interviewing many participants right after the war.

The author was a German communist who fled to the USSR when the Nazis came to power, and did propaganda for the Soviets during the war years. But once Germany was defeated, his disillusionment for the Soviet system led him to live the rest of his life in exile.

It's interesting to read a novel by a German who intimately understands the German POV, and yet isn't writing from a pro-German stance. But while his sympathies are with the Soviets the novel refrains (mostly) from cheesy propaganda.

Anyway, it's a good read if you (like me) want muddy-boots stories on the human level and can't stand those dry map-exercie books with nothing but troop movements and timetables.

[wokelly]

Ostkrieg: Hitler's War of Extermination in the East I would highly recommend. Its a single volume work on the eastern front but with (circa 2011) the most up to date historiography (views in historical community).

Its very good at showing how the battles and campaigns fit into Hitlers genocidal war against Jews and Slavs, and how his world view led him to make many of the bizarre decisions he did. Also good at disproving many of the decisions Hitler gets blamed for by Generals trying to hide their own mistakes (Ie Manstein initially advised against withdrawing from Stalingrad during the soviet encirclement, and his views played a big role in Hitler keeping them there. After the war Manstein wrote out his decision to make it look like he was always against it and it was all Hitlers fault).

Having read a lot on the eastern front, probably the best single volume work that covers the overall conflict. Pretty sparse on the tactical level, but good on making you understand why things happened the way they did.

[sburke]

I too am enjoying "Into Oblivion", lots of good detail as well as human interest. Makes me want to see courdoroy roads and makeshift bridge terrain types in CMRT.

Just bought this too. Damn you all.

As to Glantz, I gotta admit I actually really like his work. In particular I really liked the Stalingrad series. Still waiting for the last of that trilogy.

[kipanderson]

Hi,

Glantz is the master of the art .

But... I admit that his books are indeed very dry and I read them as much, often more, for the information and knowledge rather than entertainment in its normal meaning.

All the best,

Kip.

[76mm]

Lots of opinions on Glantz here. I've found that his books differ rather dramatically in their readability.

His books on Barbarossa and Stalingrad are a bit dense, but rather readable in my opinion.

Other books, such as Smolensk, seem to cut-and-paste more from Sov orders and reports and are much more tedious.

In my view Erickson's books take the prize for aggregate ease of reading and information conveyed--he is a very good writer.

[MengJiaoRedux]

Any of David Glantz' books.

Also, a comedy classic:

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-EF-Defeat/index.html

This was written from German army level war diaries mostly and is weirdly funny. It's like Glantz with a vicious sense of humor. Wonderfully written.

In defense of Glantz, I have to say, he doesn't leave anything out. Once he gets going it all goes in. I've been re-reading the big Leningrad book and, well for better or worse, it is all in there. After a while it is a hypnotic experience, with Russian losses steadily dropping (these days he guesses there were 2 million Russians captured in 1941, down quite a bit from everybody's favorite 3 million estimate of yore). Plus, he used to guess 500,000 Russian casualties for every failed Russian offensive -- which sounds good, but if you add it up that's three times as many people as were in the whole Russian Army, so maybe the more recent and much lower casualty figures that he gives in the more recent books are more correct.

Absolute War also gives lower Russian losses, noting that people were counted as missing from multiple organizations by multiple organizations and that there probably weren't that many Russians to start with.

[John Kettler]

MengJiaoRedux,

If you're interested in Russian losses, am sure you'll get quite the education from this page long thread at The Dupuy Institute. The subject is Soviet losses, and there's quite the discussion, by a former Soviet military personnel record archivist, of the methodology used for sorting out losses by category, avoiding double and triple accounting, sources of loss datas and how they were cross checked. Krivosheev's declassified numbers compared with other figures and more. When the thread was put up in 2003, the now-Russian archivist said the count for privates and junior leaders had gone only through "O," working alphabetically.

http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000051.html

Regards,

John Kettler

[Ssnake51]

Just bought this too. Damn you all.

As to Glantz, I gotta admit I actually really like his work. In particular I really liked the Stalingrad series. Still waiting for the last of that trilogy.

Am not sure it should be called a trilogy anymore. Looks like the third part is being printed in two volumes along with a companion book. Approximately 2300 pages for the three books.:eek:

I have it pre-ordered through amazon. Looks like it is going to be a busy year for reading.

That "Into the Oblivion" does look interesting. Haven't yet read any of Jason Mark's books. Will probably pick it up also.

[Terkin]

I would like to add two of my favourite books on WW2: "Tankrider" by Bessonov and "Penalty Strike" by Pylcyn.

"Tankrider" is a memoir written by a Soviet lieutenant who fought from August '43 till May '45. He and his men were tank riders (tankodesantniki), who in small teams together with T-34 and later IS-2 tanks had to lead the way for the bigger forces that were exploiting the gap after the front was broken. He tells an honest story, mentioning both combat action and more quiet life when his men were given a moment to rest.

personally for me it was also interesting to read about their tactics - they had a platoon of tanks (I'm speaking from my memory, it was few years ago when I read this book last time) with tank riders and they had to fight the blocking elements of retreating Germans and pursue them, not giving a chance to regroup and rebuild the defenses. Being always at the spearhead, he was one of the first Soviet soldiers who entered Lvov in '44

A story of a brave soldier who fought for almost two years leading the way.

"Penalty Strike" is a memoir written by Penal Battalion commanding officer (I think he was a company leader). He wasn't sentenced but assigned to it (it was a a dangerous role so he had his own bonuses - bigger paycheck etc). Under his command were former officers who committed some crime - be it a cowardice act, looting, drinking or something else. They were striped from their rank and sentenced for up to three months to penal battalion. If they were wounded, or made out alive for the whole sentence term, or made some heroic act, they were pardoned, recieving their rank and medals back.

Pylcyn also participated in liberation of Byelorussia, if I remember correctly, and greeted the end of war in Czech republic, where in Spring '45 he was shot to the head by a German sniper but survived.

This book will be also interesting for those who would like to know how was it fighting in Penal battalion from the first hands instead of using old refurbished cliches.

Pylcyn goes in detail about the weapons (Soviet and German as well) and tactics they've used, what were their relationship with higher command and his own soldiers (after all, some were higher in rank before they got to that battalion, so it was not the same as commanding usual privates).

On a sidenote, speaking of Jason Mark's literature - are there any chance to buy it anywhere in e-version? my library is big as it is, so I'm trying to save space (and trees ) by reading from Kindle.

[76mm]

On a sidenote, speaking of Jason Mark's literature - are there any chance to buy it anywhere in e-version? my library is big as it is, so I'm trying to save space (and trees ) by reading from Kindle.

Unfortunately not. I only have one of his books--Island of Fire--and given that there are LOTS of pictures and maps I don't think it would be a great reading experience on the Kindle.

[sburke]

Unfortunately not. I only have one of his books--Island of Fire--and given that there are LOTS of pictures and maps I don't think it would be a great reading experience on the Kindle.

yeah that is the one area where my kindle fails me and unfortunately it is military histories where I really want that stuff that it fails... end result my bookshelves are turning into a military library as the rest of my stuff becomes available on kindle. Kind of neat, but I really enjoyed the diversity. Even using the kindle app on my PC doesn't help.

Great map of the barrikady for an overlay when we hit 1942 in CM in Into Oblivion