On spotting Spotting

[John Kettler]

Decades ago, I was told in a personal development seminar: "You don't notice old brick until you need it. Then you see it everywhere you go." So true. The same goes for other matters upon which we focus.

Still, I am somewhat surprised to report that something analogous is now happening to me when it comes to Spotting. It seems to be leaping out at me from all over the place, be it a slim photo essay book showing the German side of the last year of the War In The East (a whitewashed 251 Stummel on the steppe in winter, with two people standing tall peering intently through binos) that I pulled off the shelf to glance through during a rare visit to Half Price Books, to a German FO team using a small scissor telescope to call down fire from the ruins of the town of Cassino onto the hapless Allies below, to officers peering over a crest, to, so help me, an officer detaching himself from a group of soldiers, stepping into the road, standing tall and peering to screen left with his binos. This is but a representative sample. I believe that once you're sensitized to it, you, too, will start to spot Spotting! It's all over the place and has been all along.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Skwabie]

and since we're on the general topic of spotting, there's a question i wanna ask: does establishing C2 link enhances spotting for other friendly units?

for example an infantry squad spots an enemy tank. my own tank does have LOS to it but hasn't yet spotted it. if the infantry squad has C2 established, will it help my own tank see the enemy tank sooner?

[YankeeDog]

and since we're on the general topic of spotting, there's a question i wanna ask: does establishing C2 link enhances spotting for other friendly units?

for example an infantry squad spots an enemy tank. my own tank does have LOS to it but hasn't yet spotted it. if the infantry squad has C2 established, will it help my own tank see the enemy tank sooner?

Potentially. It depends on whether the tank has received the spotting info from the infantry unit yet or not.

It takes time for spotting info to travel over the C2 net. Time can range from a few seconds for units with the same immediate parent HQ (e.g., in the same platoon) and with strong (voice & visual) C2 links, to several minutes for units that are in C2, but are from only distantly connected formations and have one or more lower quality C2 links separating them (radio links are especially slow).

Once the spotting info from one unit reaches another unit, that unit "knows" the location of the enemy unit, even if it hasn't spotted it itself. This gives the the unit an advantage in establishing its own spot.

[Skwabie]

Got it. Makes sense. Been pondering this for a while and obviously no way to verify it meself. Thnx YankeeDog.

[YankeeDog]

Glad to be of help.

There is a game aid to give you an idea of what info a unit has received over the C2 net. When you have a unit selected, you only see the "?" enemy contacts that the specific unit selected is aware of. These include both enemy the unit spotted itself recently but can't presently see, and also units that it hasn't ever seen itself, but is aware of due to information received over the C2 net. Brighter, more opaque "?"s indicate recent info or spots, the dimmer, more translucent ones indicate older information.

[Michael Emrys]

There is a game aid to give you an idea of what info a unit has received over the C2 net. When you have a unit selected, you only see the "?" enemy contacts that the specific unit selected is aware of. These include both enemy the unit spotted itself recently but can't presently see, and also units that it hasn't ever seen itself, but is aware of due to information received over the C2 net. Brighter, more opaque "?"s indicate recent info or spots, the dimmer, more translucent ones indicate older information.

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to develop a "more intensive search" command. To wit, a unit has received information that an enemy is in such and such a location and although has LOS to that location has not spotted said enemy unit itself. The "more intensive search" command would be a little like a CA command except that it would definitely improve the odds for spotting that unit or any enemy unit close to the one searched for.

Michael

[sburke]

Stare harder!!! Maybe I'll find the Belgian Army.

[LukeFF]

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to develop a "more intensive search" command. To wit, a unit has received information that an enemy is in such and such a location and although has LOS to that location has not spotted said enemy unit itself. The "more intensive search" command would be a little like a CA command except that it would definitely improve the odds for spotting that unit or any enemy unit close to the one searched for.

I'm not really seeing any sort of merit in such a feature, and like sburke wrote above, it sounds like a "stare harder" command.

[Freyberg]

I've been acting under the assumption that a covered arc makes troops stare harder - I don't have any evidence that it works though, but I bet it does.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I've been acting under the assumption that a covered arc makes troops stare harder - I don't have any evidence that it works though, but I bet it does.

BFC has said it does not. It just makes all the troops look in the same direction, which can help spotting in that direction through sheer volume of eyeballs pointed that way, but there is no bonus or modifier.

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

I can understand why the Cover Arc wouldn't make the troops stare harder (presumably, they're already motivated to watch for what can quickly kill them), but I'd think, working from first principles and what I recall of target detection models in my aerospace days, that by reducing the overall sector to be searched, detection times would drop, since there'd be so much less of a region in which to search.

When you know, to any degree of specificity, where to look, it's called a cued search, and it's much more effective than having to conduct a general search. I'd therefore argue that the Cover Arc should reduce target detection times, since the Cover Arc, by its very nature, creates a cued search situation.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Vanir Ausf B]

That is very well argued, John, but you just repeated what I already said the game does, except you used about 10 times more words.

[Michael Emrys]

I can understand why the Cover Arc wouldn't make the troops stare harder (presumably, they're already motivated to watch for what can quickly kill them), but I'd think, working from first principles and what I recall of target detection models in my aerospace days, that by reducing the overall sector to be searched, detection times would drop, since there'd be so much less of a region in which to search.

When you know, to any degree of specificity, where to look, it's called a cued search, and it's much more effective than having to conduct a general search. I'd therefore argue that the Cover Arc should reduce target detection times, since the Cover Arc, by its very nature, creates a cued search situation.

This was exactly my thought. But it seems uncertain—to say the least—that CA as it presently exists functions in this way, i.e., conveys any spotting bonus.

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

Stare harder!!! Maybe I'll find the Belgian Army.

It shouldn't be too hard since it was the third largest army in the theater (out of five). They're around here somewhere.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

Thank you! That said, I truly believe that we are, in fact, talking about two different things. Your argument is that a Cover Arc puts more eyeballs, as in more troops, on the area, thus reducing detection times. My argument, though, is essentially independent of any eyeball count, providing there's one person looking. That's because my argument says "By limiting the size of the zone to be searched, as opposed to omnidirectional search, it takes less time to search, because it is a cued search. It's focused in a specific area, rather than blindly looking about and hoping to see something. Since it takes less time to search a narrower region than a wider one, presuming similar environment and environmental conditions, the result is more search passes in the first case (Cover Arc), therefore yielding a higher cumulative detection probability.

No, I'm not going to show the math, since I'm sure it exceeds the level to which I studied!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Lt Bull]

BFC has said it does not. It just makes all the troops look in the same direction, which can help spotting in that direction through sheer volume of eyeballs pointed that way, but there is no bonus or modifier.

I'm finding much of what is being stated as having been said/not been said by BFC as far as spotting and covered arcs go somewhat confusing and potentially misleading. I can see potential for misinterpreting both questions and answers related to this topic. Despite what has been said here, I still can't work out how the spotting mechanic combined with covered arcs does/doesn't work.

Here is how I think spotting (I would expect) to work in CMx2 (will mainly refer to infantry):

a) Every unit has a base "spotting power" it can use that gets distributed about the 360deg LOS arc about a unit.

For infantry units, the number of troops in the unit affects this base "spotting power" (not sure of the relationship, not sure if a 10 man infantry unit has double the "spotting power" of a 5 man infantry unit, but I am sure it has more).

c) By default (ie. no covered arcs) the "spotting power" of a unit is distributed about the 360deg LOS arc about the unit according to some standard fixed relationship. ie. perhaps the game breaks up the 360deg LOS arc in to say four standard arc sectors, a frontal arc (perhaps the forward 120deg arc of the unit), two flank arcs (perhaps 60deg each) and a rear arc (the rear 120deg of the unit), and assigns different proportions of the "spotting power"to each arc. eg. 50% to frontal arc, 20% to flank arcs, 10% to rear arc.

d) When using a covered arc command, perhaps it forces a unit to assign x% (lets assume it's 40%) of it's available "spotting power" to the covered arc, while the remainder is distributed about the default front, side and rear sectors as it would normally.

ie. Assume a unit has a base "spotting power" of 100. By default 50 "spotting power" will be assigned to the frontal arc, 20 to each of the flank arcs and 10 to the rear arc.

That means:

• 50 spotting power (SP) will be assigned to forward arc sector (ie. net detection per 50 SP/120deg = 0.417 SP/deg)
  
  
• 20 SP to each of the flank arc sectors (ie. 20 SP/60deg = 0.333 SP/deg)
  
  
• 10 SP to the rear arc sector (ie.10 SP/120deg = 0.083 SP/deg)
  

ie. the chances of detecting an enemy unit in any of the sectors is proportionally based directly on the SP/deg value.

Now assume that the player assigns a 180deg covered arc to the same unit. Using my assumption above, if 40% of the available SP gets assigned to the covered arc, then the distribution of SP across all sectors can be broken down like this (note: depending on where the enemy unit is, the chance to spot it will be the sum of the SP/deg applicable to the sector the unit is in + the SP/deg 'bonus' of the covered arc if it is within the covered arc):

60% (not 100%) of base SP distributed as per normal across the front, flank and rear arc sectors:

ie.

• 60% of 50 SP will be assigned to forward arc sector (ie. net detection per 0.6 x 50 SP/120deg = 0.25 SP/deg)
  
  
• 60% of 20 SP to each of the flank arc sectors (ie 0.6 x 20 SP/60deg = 0.2 SP/deg)
  
  
• 60% of 10 SP to the rear arc sector (ie. 0.6 x 10 SP/120deg = 0.05 SP/deg)
  

If the enemy unit is within the covered arc, add the following 'bonus':

40% of 100 SP/size of covered arc = 0.4 x 100/180deg = +0.222 SP/deg

In this way, the overall actual "spotting power" of the unit does not increase (ie. the same amount of "eyes" are scanning at the same rate they would be by default). It just effectively redistributes the same amount of time a unit would spend spotting about the 360deg around the unit. NOTE: In the way I suggested spotting may be calculated, assigned a 360deg covered arc (or close enough to that) would make the chances a unit have of spotting an enemy unit equal, no matter where that unit is located positioned relative to the unit facing.

It also ensures that regardless of whether a covered arc is used or not, a unit will always have at least some eyes spotting the full 360deg around the unit.

Vanir Ausf B,

I truly believe that we are, in fact, talking about two different things.

I don't think you are. I don't think any of you are saying that using covered arcs increases the overall spotting ability (or power) of a unit. I think both of you are saying that the covered arc just redistributes/intensifies the spotting ability of a unit based on the covered arc in a similar way to how I have proposed.

[Vanir Ausf B]

As far as I am aware there is no unit spotting power. Rather, spotting is calculated at the individual soldier level. Although soldiers do have some 360° awareness, they are always considered to be looking specifically in the direction they are facing. That is why having the Covered Arc command act as a "stare harder" command would be redundant. Soldiers are always staring hard in whatever direction they happen to be facing unless they are hiding or suppressed. The Covered Arc just gets them all staring in the same direction, as well as defining engagement parameters.

At least that is my understanding from reading many BFC posts over the years.

[Lt Bull]

Here is an example of why this conversation gets confusing/mis-interpreted really quickly.

As far as I am aware there is no unit spotting power. Rather, spotting is calculated at the individual soldier level.

It doesn't matter what they call it (formally or informally) but each unit (or individual soldiers) will have a certain "spotting power", or spotting ability, whatever you want to call it/not call it. Collectively all the individual soldiers in a unit will ultimately contribute to the overall "spotting power" of the unit. If that weren't the case, all units ability to spot, regardless of the number of individual soldiers in it, would be the same. Maybe dynamically the overall unit spotting power (sum of all individual soldiers) changes depending on the state of each soldier.

eg. Start of turn, a unit (with 4 soldiers in it) may have all soldiers spotting. You can assume the unit spotting power is the sum of the individual soldiers spotting power, we can assume it adds up to some value "x". Halfway through the turn, 2 soldiers get cower or panic etc. The overall spotting power of the unit is some value less than x for that time that they are cowering or paniced.

Maybe the game actually tracks and takes in to account the actual direction each individual solider is facing relative to the overall direction the unit is considered to be facing. More complex but not unreasonable to assume and consider.

Although soldiers do have some 360° awareness, they are always considered to be looking specifically in the direction they are facing.

This generic comment really communicates nothing except ambiguous confusion. What do you mean by "always looking in the direction they are facing"? You mean the direction each soldier is graphically represented in the game to be facing at any given point in time? So what are they doing in the direction they are "not looking"? How can you say they also have 360° awareness if they are considered to be looking in the direction they are facing? Are you suggesting they literally can see things outside of the direction they are not looking at without even looking? I think we know units can spot units outside the cone of vision based on the graphical representation of the direction the individual soldiers within each unit are facing.

That is why having the Covered Arc command act as a "stare harder" command would be redundant. Soldiers are always staring hard in whatever direction they happen to be facing unless they are hiding or suppressed. The Covered Arc just gets them all staring in the same direction, as well as defining engagement parameters.

I think the use of the term "stare hard"/"stare harder"" in this discussion is both inappropriate and misleading when trying to understand how the mechanics of spotting may work. Staring typically implies looking in one direction, head and eyes not scanning. This does not happen, both in game or in reality.

It's better to instead consider the time they spend scanning the different sectors around them, or applying different "scanning frequencies" dependent on facing and or if covered arcs are included. And don't expect to see the graphical in-game representations of where each soldier to appears to be looking to relate exactly to the sectors being scanned by that soldier at that moment in time. It would be abstracted to represent the "facing" of the unit, with it's spotting ability distributed proportionally around it something like how I have described.

For what it's worth, it appears the facing and covered arc has the same affect as far as controlling a units overall facing. All soldiers within the unit end up facing the same direction, with units given a covered arc facing the middle of the arc.

Regardless of whether a unit is given a covered arc or not, I would assume the net amount of time a unit spends "scanning"/"spotting" in all directions remains the same.

ie. Each soldier has only so much time (could interchange it with the term "spotting power") to look around in any given turn.

A covered arc would typically just make them spend more time scanning within the defined covered arc at the expenses of time spent scanning in other directions. Overall, they aren't looking/"staring" any harder. They are just spending more time scanning certain arcs than others.

[akd]

Target arcs (and that's what they are, not "cover arcs") are for fire control. They only affect spotting in so much as they determine unit facing. Spotting is weighted forward, i.e. in the direction the unit is facing. This is a really good thing, as target arcs are not just for telling a unit to "concentrate" on an area and there are many circumstances in which you would not want a unit to have reduced spotting outside their arc, while circumstances in which you would want a unit to concentrate spotting in a direction other than their current facing are extremely limited.

Anyways, getting a "bonus" to spotting depending on the size and shape of a target arc would introduce an element of ridiculous micro-management that most players, except the retentive control freak types, would not appreciate. So if you've been giving every unit on the map a target arc in order to carefully manage spotting, consider this my Christmas gift to you: you don't have to do that anymore! Face commands will suffice for spotting management. You only need to give a unit a target arc if it is important that the unit not fire outside the arc.

[Michael Emrys]

By default (ie. no covered arcs) the "spotting power" of a unit is distributed about the 360deg LOS arc about the unit according to some standard fixed relationship. ie. perhaps the game breaks up the 360deg LOS arc in to say four standard arc sectors, a frontal arc (perhaps the forward 120deg arc of the unit), two flank arcs (perhaps 60deg each) and a rear arc (the rear 120deg of the unit), and assigns different proportions of the "spotting power"to each arc. eg. 50% to frontal arc, 20% to flank arcs, 10% to rear arc.

What happens to the remaining 20%? Are they staring at their feet or gazing up into the sky? Plausible, but is that really what you mean to say?

Michael

[Lt Bull]

What happens to the remaining 20%? Are they staring at their feet or gazing up into the sky? Plausible, but is that really what you mean to say?

Ah, I did mean to say that but for extra clarity I probably should have said:

50% to frontal arc, 20% to each of the two flank arcs, 10% to rear arc.

Again, this is all just speculation on how I would expect the spotting mechanics to work, given the facts about the game that seem universally accepted: eg. units are more likely to spot enemy in front of then, than on the flanks, and more liekly to spot enemy on the flanks than to the rear, that more troops in a unit are more likely to spot enemy than a unit with less troops.

However, it seems that akd has come out and quite confidently stated that:

Target arcs (and that's what they are, not "cover arcs") are for fire control. They only affect spotting in so much as they determine unit facing.

This definitely blows away all that was speculation about CAs and spotting that I was addressing which was contained within posts #9 through to #15. It is apparent there is not a unified understanding of how spotting/covered arcs work/don't work.

Anyways, getting a "bonus" to spotting depending on the size and shape of a target arc would introduce an element of ridiculous micro-management that most players, except the retentive control freak types, would not appreciate.

As you can tell from this thread, some people have already been kind of thinking/expecting that to be the case.

Face commands will suffice for spotting management. You only need to give a unit a target arc if it is important that the unit not fire outside the arc.

Have no problems with that statement as it is clearly stated and defined (ie. no use of terms like "stare harder"). Would be good to have BFC comment on it once and for all.

[Michael Emrys]

It is apparent there is not a unified understanding of how spotting/covered arcs work/don't work.

That remains my impression as well. BFC may have made a clear statement somewhere, but I haven't seen it. The ones I have seen strike me as a trifle ambiguous and leave loopholes to interpretation. These get exploited in the usual way by a flurry of speculative and contradictory posts.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Would be good to have BFC comment on it once and for all.

.............................

OK, I poked Charles into giving me some more details about how things work under the hood. Turns out I got this same info from him back in May and posted it here (somewhere). Guess I should post it again:

So the "bonus" is, as I mostly remembered correctly, primarily due to the Facing of the unit and not a special bonus artificially assigned. This should clear up all questions being asked in the past page or two. Specifically:

1. The primary spotting advantage of a CA is to keep the unit from shifting it's Facing due to other tactical distractions. Meaning, if you absolutely want to make sure you keep a narrow portion of the battlefield under observation, CAs work better than non-CAs in theory. But reality means it comes down to distractions because...

2. A unit looking in the same exact direction in the same exact situation will spot exactly the same whether it has a CA or no CA (and not Hiding, obviously).

3. Units that have a 360 deg CA don't see any benefit from it other than limiting engagement range.

4. As I've said several times now, the "bonus" isn't that big of a deal. People trying to "game the system" by using CAs to increase spotting chances are wasting their time and possibly causing themselves some harm.

Hope that helps.

Steve

[Lt Bull]

Thanks Vanir Ausf B....there is no doubt now. CAs work no different to the Face command when it comes to spotting. Could just argue that CAs are a more "resilient" way of maintaining facing.

Before this thread ends and while we are talking about facing, it is annoying that "panicked" infantry that have retreat and then recover never seem to have the TacAI intelligence to at least auto-face in the general diction of the enemy. They seem happy to typically remain facing the opposite direction from the enemy or in the same direction they retreated after they finish retreating and recover composure. It would be good by default if recovering routed/retreating/panicked infantry at least turned to face the general direction of the enemy.

[Skwabie]

.............................

thnx vab and ofc steve, got me clear as well