PhilM Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Potential spoiler alert if you don't want to know anything about the Scenario ... I have just begun a PBEM of this, as Axis. There are significant AFV forces which have immediately to cross a bridge to begin to move to contact. Despite many different tries at waypoints at various distances from either end of the bridge, the AFVs do not like crossing it, going through lots of pirouettes at both ends of the bridge and making VERY slow progress. The bridge seems to go diagonally across the action squares themselves, and the line of the ditch it crosses zig zags itself to make an overall opposite diagonal to the bridge across the action squares. The vehicles seem to want to follow a path at right angles to the action squares, not the diagonal line of the bridge, and do not find a straight line from one end of the short bridge to the other. As it is only a ditch the AFVs could probably be directed to cross the ditch without using the bridge at all, but it seems a bit odd to have this bridge right at the start of the scenario and not be able to use it properly? Also, the scenario has a much more significant bridge later on, and I don't want to find the same problem with that one after hours and hours of play! I have seen other references to bridge issues after MG for pre-existing bridges from 2.0: any comments on this one built new in MG? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Welcome to Holland and polder and all! It took me 15 turns to get all the armor across that bridge. Not as bad as I thought, actually. (You may be on to something as to why the Vehicle Hamster Dance they all do at each end of the bridge, btw.) The ditch either represents a stream or just a boggy stream bed (can't recall real life conditions). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Potential spoiler alert if you don't want to know anything about the Scenario ... I have just begun a PBEM of this, as Axis. There are significant AFV forces which have immediately to cross a bridge to begin to move to contact. Despite many different tries at waypoints at various distances from either end of the bridge, the AFVs do not like crossing it, going through lots of pirouettes at both ends of the bridge and making VERY slow progress. The bridge seems to go diagonally across the action squares themselves, and the line of the ditch it crosses zig zags itself to make an overall opposite diagonal to the bridge across the action squares. The vehicles seem to want to follow a path at right angles to the action squares, not the diagonal line of the bridge, and do not find a straight line from one end of the short bridge to the other. As it is only a ditch the AFVs could probably be directed to cross the ditch without using the bridge at all, but it seems a bit odd to have this bridge right at the start of the scenario and not be able to use it properly? Also, the scenario has a much more significant bridge later on, and I don't want to find the same problem with that one after hours and hours of play! I have seen other references to bridge issues after MG for pre-existing bridges from 2.0: any comments on this one built new in MG? In testing that scenario I never had any trouble crossing that bridge .... I think you are describing the bridge near the set up zone that crosses the marshy terrain? The AI uses the bridge with no trouble at all and when testing it I was able to place a waypoint from the vehicles all the way up at the first bend in the road and the vehicles would cross the bridge with no trouble at all. I know that other players have described on these forums that they were playing that scenario and none of them indicated any bridge crossing issues that I'm aware of. I also didn't have any trouble with the bridges across the Dommel so I'm not sure what to tell you. You don't have the ATI click compatibility thing going on do you? Edited to add that you should make sure that you give the vehicles some separation before they cross the bridge. Give following vehicles a few seconds delay so they don't all bunch up on the bridge. You should have plenty of time to get where you need to go so there is no need to rush. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 In testing that scenario I never had any trouble crossing that bridge .... I think you are describing the bridge near the set up zone that crosses the marshy terrain? The AI uses the bridge with no trouble at all and when testing it I was able to place a waypoint from the vehicles all the way up at the first bend in the road and the vehicles would cross the bridge with no trouble at all. I know that other players have described on these forums that they were playing that scenario and none of them indicated any bridge crossing issues that I'm aware of. I also didn't have any trouble with the bridges across the Dommel so I'm not sure what to tell you. You don't have the ATI click compatibility thing going on do you? Edited to add that you should make sure that you give the vehicles some separation before they cross the bridge. Give following vehicles a few seconds delay so they don't all bunch up on the bridge. You should have plenty of time to get where you need to go so there is no need to rush. Last point first: yep I did try to leave enough of a gap with pauses, and grouped the vehicles into formations I want them to fight in and began to move them by formation, but because of the slow progress the gaps were too short and a minor jam ensued. But I'm reasonably happy that the jam was a result of the difficulties, not the cause of them. Also take the point that there is time, on this occasion: but if it is a point of principal with bridge(s) that may crop up on other occasions when there may not be lots of time ... And yes, it is the bridge just out of the setup zone, over the Hooidonksche Beek. As I experienced the issue in a PBEM game, I have just tried a few turns in a separate v AI game to repeat it if I can. (You are so far away from enemy contact that I've learned nothing new about the opposition in this, honest! Still not seen them at all, in either game ...) I'm playing on a MacBook Pro with integrated HD graphics: not the wizziest performer, but I don't think it is the ATI thing. My AFVs veer left on entering the bridge, then turn sharp right to the right parapet half way across, and then sharp left again to get stuck trying to exit the bridge over the left parapet, and slowly work their way off from there ... This happens with long or short waypoints beyond the bridge, and with the AFV sitting squarely in the middle of the road in front of the bridge before they set off. Even though the path indicator seems to take them right over the centre line of the bridge, they don't follow its line ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 My AFVs veer left on entering the bridge, then turn sharp right to the right parapet half way across, and then sharp left again to get stuck trying to exit the bridge over the left parapet, and slowly work their way off from there ... This happens with long or short waypoints beyond the bridge, and with the AFV sitting squarely in the middle of the road in front of the bridge before they set off. Even though the path indicator seems to take them right over the centre line of the bridge, they don't follow its line ... Also tried this, with the same result (left - right - left). If you set pauses like 20 to 30 seconds between the individual vehicles, they will still get across reasonably, even if it takes much longer than it really should. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Hmm, that's really strange. It's possible that an adjustment to the bridge pathing routines was added after the time period that I was testing the scenario and so that behavior popped in after I was done testing it. A patch should be coming out pretty soon though so hopefully that will fix the issue. In the mean time though you should be able to get across the bridge with a few pauses. Your columns will get fairly stretched out, but your ... ahem ... supporting forces will probably take long enough to reach where you are going such that it shouldn't be too much of an issue for you overall. Frustrating? Perhaps, but it shouldn't be a game breaker for you and cause you to end the battle. Possible Spoiler*** Just so you know - there is also a known issue with one of your 'support' vehicles about reloading. It's my understanding that the vehicle will fire but then gets stuck during the reloading routine unless the crew is exposed. I haven't confirmed that myself, but I've read that from others. Once again though, it is a known item and should be fixed when the patch comes out ... hopefully very soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Also tried this, with the same result (left - right - left). If you set pauses like 20 to 30 seconds between the individual vehicles, they will still get across reasonably, even if it takes much longer than it really should. That's what I meant above about being onto something...left/right/left over the bridge for me, too. Btw, I started over after Turn 17 because I modded the German Armored-Engineer uniforms so they would look more like camo-smocks--I just don't like the default ones--and if you change uniforms in your mod folder after starting a scenario they won't show up in any already-saved battle. Anyway, the first game I did basically what ASL mentioned, then on the restart did the individual move order/pause routine. The latter routine saved me about 2 minutes overall. Left/right/left over the bridge both times though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Okay: as axis, for each PhilM, Mad Mike, and mjkerner? Do you mind telling me which vehicle you first noticed this behavior with? And where in the "convoy" of crossing vehicles it was located? Thanks, Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 Ken I've just dropped you a pm P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I wonder what speed players had their tanks moving. As long as it wasn't completely impassible, I've never had trouble moving armor across ludicrously difficult terrain as long as I gave them the order to use Slow speed. Seemed to me that the drivers were better able to cope with the complications that way...or something. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I used Slow speed (and the last few vehicles the 2nd time around on Move). I didn't see the time it took for vehicles to cross as "wrong", but the Hamster Dance just looks odd. Both times I sent 2 tank platoons first, then the AA vehicles, then the rest of the tanks. Ken, I saw that behavior on all the vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Okay: as axis, for each PhilM, Mad Mike, and mjkerner? Do you mind telling me which vehicle you first noticed this behavior with? And where in the "convoy" of crossing vehicles it was located? Thanks, Ken Ken, in setup I had grouped my guys into mini battle groups (equal strength as near as you can) in which I plan to employ them: a Zug of Panzergrenadiers on foot accompanying a Zug of Panthers and a Drilling 251/21, with a Mobelwagen tucked in a couple of the groups. It is the first such group I am trying to get across, with a Panther leading at normal speed. As the first vehicle on its own, and with a clear bridge in front of it, the first Panther exhibits the "route hunting" behaviour. In later tries the other vehicle types do the same thing. The Panzergrenadiers on foot don't seem to suffer the same problems, running straight down the middle of the bridge ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 I can also confirm that crossing that bridge didn't look like what would have happened with old, pre-MarketGarden bridges at all. Much slower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted November 7, 2013 Author Share Posted November 7, 2013 Just tried another option: setting a path for a Panther that leads from the road before the bridge, straight across the Beek (=Beck? I didn't know that! Isn't CM educational ...) and back to the road on the far side of the bridge. The Panther will not (cannot?) cross the mud of the Beek, and so does correctly find and use the bridge to cross, but even then when it is doing it under its own steam rather than directed by me, it still does the left-right-left thing: which does look to me like it is following AS edges as it crosses the bridge ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 8, 2013 Share Posted November 8, 2013 Thanks. If the bridge crossing is too much of an issue, I suggest that you hold your last savegame, whether vs. the AI or pbem, and await a resolution. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted November 9, 2013 Share Posted November 9, 2013 Do you mind telling me which vehicle you first noticed this behavior with? And where in the "convoy" of crossing vehicles it was located? Thanks, Ken No problem: I started with the first 3 Panthers in the column (didn't change from the setup positions) and gave each the order to move across the bridge. The first Panther had no delay, the second had a 15 seconds and the third a 30 seconds delay. Each of those three vehicles showed the same behaviour described above, the two trailing Panthers also had to take some automatic pauses - which didn't really change the outcome. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted November 9, 2013 Author Share Posted November 9, 2013 Thanks. If the bridge crossing is too much of an issue, I suggest that you hold your last savegame, whether vs. the AI or pbem, and await a resolution. Ken Not too much of an issue - so far! I am continuing with the PBEM, and my v AI tries were just re-running the first few minutes several times to make sure that the issue did recur. It is possible to proceed because of both where the problem bridge is (way in my backfield, and so not offering a sideways-on or backwards-on target from the errant pathing), and "when" it is (right at the battle start, and so there seems to be time to wait for the traffic to work through). My concern is that it will be the same for other bridges later in the battle where I expect to be under fire, and could then do without the pirouetting about ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 The other bridges are not diagonal and I suspect that the behavior is mostly due to the diagonal nature of that particular bridge. I can't guarantee that you will have no trouble at the other bridges, but I can say that I didn't have any trouble with the other bridges. The patch should be out fairly soon anyway so hopefully you will be installing the patch by the time you make it to the next bridge. Like I said though, I don't anticipate you having any trouble with the other bridges. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 The other bridges are not diagonal and I suspect that the behavior is mostly due to the diagonal nature of that particular bridge. I can't guarantee that you will have no trouble at the other bridges, but I can say that I didn't have any trouble with the other bridges. The patch should be out fairly soon anyway so hopefully you will be installing the patch by the time you make it to the next bridge. Like I said though, I don't anticipate you having any trouble with the other bridges. OK, thanks for the intel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 10, 2013 Share Posted November 10, 2013 And, yes, your issue has been reported to the authorities. Thanks! Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted November 10, 2013 Author Share Posted November 10, 2013 And, yes, your issue has been reported to the authorities. Thanks! Ken Thanks for the update. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilM Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 The 2.11 Feature List includes "bridge navigation problems corrected". Having just installed 2.11 I was hoping to see the issue in my OP resolved. But a quick try shows that - for this bridge anyway - the vehicles still act as they did before??? Anyone else still see this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Yeah, that was a different issue that was more general to all bridges and made them totally unusable in some circumstances. The odd pathing on this bridge seems to be something particular to its placement on this map. It works, just takes a bit longer than it should. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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