Air Support Not So Supportive.

[Nick Carter]

I tried searching for "air support" and CAS but didn't find any threads referencing what I'm seeing, any pointers would be welcome.

I'm playing the Nijmegen campaign and I'm finding two behaviours in CAS that are unhelpful.

1) I'll wait the 9-12 minutes for CAS to show up, having targeted a large area. They will fly in, "attack", "come around" and leave without actually firing at anything. I assume this is because they didn't see any targets.

2) More humourously because of #1, often air support will attack my men or vehicles, even under cover, well behind (in other words where the CAS spotter should have informed them of where my advance is and is heading) the target area. This has even happened when the target area is a couple of action spots in diameter on a spotted target, and my men were 50-80 action spots away, with large copses or other terrain features between them and the enemy. The last couple of missions I ended up not using much air support at all because of my fearing CAS more than the enemy.

I don't seem to recall air support being such a gamble in the past with CMBN. So what am I doing wrong - how are people using their air support in the campaign?

[akd]

I tried searching for "air support" and CAS but didn't find any threads referencing what I'm seeing, any pointers would be welcome.

I'm playing the Nijmegen campaign and I'm finding two behaviours in CAS that are unhelpful.

1) I'll wait the 9-12 minutes for CAS to show up, having targeted a large area. They will fly in, "attack", "come around" and leave without actually firing at anything. I assume this is because they didn't see any targets.

2) More humourously because of #1, often air support will attack my men or vehicles, even under cover, well behind (in other words where the CAS spotter should have informed them of where my advance is and is heading) the target area. This has even happened when the target area is a couple of action spots in diameter on a spotted target, and my men were 50-80 action spots away, with large copses or other terrain features between them and the enemy. The last couple of missions I ended up not using much air support at all because of my fearing CAS more than the enemy.

I don't seem to recall air support being such a gamble in the past with CMBN. So what am I doing wrong - how are people using their air support in the campaign?

edit: oops, I see you said it was an area target.

Area targets for aircraft tell them to search for targets on their own. WWII aircraft are really bad at spotting targets, and really good at mistaking friendlies for enemies when they do see something. If you use a point target, they will reliably attack that point (in fact, with unrealistic accuracy) as long as the point is not obscured (e.g. point targets in trees or under smoke can be problematic). I would reserve air support area targets for areas far behind the front line where you suspect there may be vehicles moving in the open.

[Nick Carter]

If you use a point target, they will reliably attack that point (in fact, with unrealistic accuracy) as long as the point is not obscured (e.g. point targets in trees or under smoke can be problematic). I would reserve air support area targets for areas far behind the front line where you suspect there may be vehicles moving in the open.

Interesting. This makes air support not so useful in the Nijmegen campaign (so far) as it's rare for the lone CAS/artillery spotter (the one they tell you not to lose under any circumstances) to have eyeballs on any specific targets, and so far most of the targets are under heavy forest, although often right on the edge of it.

[John Kettler]

Nick,

Friendly CAS could and did wreak havoc on the supported force, as seen here in the Friendly Fire Wiki.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendly_fire

7 August, a RAF Hawker Typhoon strafed a squad from 'F' Company/US 120th Infantry Regiment, near Hill 314, France, killing two men.[45] Around noon on the same day, RAF Hawker Typhoon of the 2TAF was called in to assist the US 823rd Tank Destroyer Battalion in stopping an attack by the 2nd SS Panzer Division between Sourdeval and Mortain but instead fired its rockets at two US 3-inch guns near L'Abbaye Blanche, killing one man and wounding several others even after the yellow smoke (which was to identify friendlies) was put out. Two hours later, an RAF Typhoon shot up the Service Company of the 120th Infantry Regiment, US 30th Division, causing several casualties, including Major James Bynum who was killed near Mortain. The officer who replaced him was strafed by another Typhoon a few minutes later and seriously wounded. Around the same time, a Hawker Typhoon attacked the Cannon Company of 120th Infantry Regiment, US 30th Division, near Mortain, killing 15 men.[45] An hour later, RAF Typhoons strafed 'B' Company/US 120th Infantry Regiment on Hill 285, killing a driver of a weapons carrier.[46]

8 August, near Mortain, France, RAF Hawker Typhoons attacked two Sherman tanks of 'C' Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion with rockets, killing 5 tank crewmen and wounding 10 soldiers. Later that day, two Shermans from 'A' Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion were destroyed and set ablaze by RAF Typhoons near Mortain. One tank crewman was killed and 12 others wounded.[48]

9 August, a RAF Hawker Typhoon strafed units of the British Columbia Regiment and the Algonquin Regiment, 4th Canadian Armoured Division, near Quesnay Wood during Operation Totalize, causing several casualties. Later that day, the same units were mistakenly fired upon by tanks and artillery of the 1st Polish Armoured Division, resulting in more casualties.

12 August, RAF Hawker Typhoons fired rockets at Shermans of 'A' Company, US 743rd Tank Battalion, near Mortain, France, causing damage to one tank and badly injuring 2 tank crewmen.[49]

13 August, 12 British soldiers of ‘B’ Company, 4th Wiltshires, 43rd Wessex Division, were killed and 25 others wounded when they were hit by rockets and machine gun attacks by RAF Typhoons near La Villette, Calvados, France.[50]

12 September, a group of RAF Hawker Typhoons destroyed two Sherman tanks of the Governor General's Foot Guards, 4th Canadian Armoured Division in the vicinity of Maldegem, Belgium, killing 3 men and injuring 4. One Canadian soldier from the 4th Canadian Armored Division wounded recalled this incident saying "....while so deployed the tanks were suddenly attacked, in mistake, by several Typhoon aircraft. Lt. Middleton-Hope's tank was badly hit, killing the gunner Guardsman Hughes, and the tank was set on fire. Almost immediately Sgt. Jenning's tank was similarly knocked out by Typhoon rockets. Meanwhile the Typhoons continued to press home their attack with machine guns and rockets, and, while trying to extricate the gunner, Lt. Middleton-Hope was blown off the tank. In this tragic encounter Guardsmen Baker, Barter, and Cheal were seriously wounded."[56]

A more serious look at the problem of amicide (death by friendlies) is here, with the air amicide beginning on page 29.

Amicide: the Problem of Friendly Fire in Modern War, Lt. Col Shrader, U.S. Army

As you'll see from the examples given, you're undergoing the same experience which befell your real world counterparts. As noted above, the problem was so bad one CO wanted to use his own Crusader AA tanks to defend his troops against deadly friendly aircraft, which, BTW, were firing 20mm cannon, not machine guns!

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/cgsc/carl/download/csipubs/shrader.pdf

These sorts of episodes become far more understandable when you look at the world as seen by the attacker, in this case, a slow moving, heavily loaded Ju-87G.

Here's something similar, taken from the brilliant WW II doc Thunderbolt, directed by William Wyler, the same guy who did Ben Hur. Bridge attack at ~minute 21 and low level strikes at 24 and continuing.

Begin to see how easy it is to screw up target ID, especially in a fluid situation with situation maps hours, if not more. out of date? Now, take a look at radio reliability rates, net confusion, atmospherics and, say, having the wrong tuning crystals.

Amicide by aircraft dates back to WW I and is with us to this day. thus, MG faithfully models the bad things which could and did occur when units had CAS strikes arriving.

Regards,

John Kettler

[ridethe415]

I am playing the 3rd battle in the same campaign. I used both CAS at the start of the scenario, one plane attacked with rockets...pretty cool sounding, but didn't achieve much.

The other I could hear just flying around...

[Holien]

Thanks akd that helps explain a few things...

I had set up area attack and my men well away from area got nobbled (2nd battle of same campaign). Which is fair enough as I do know how poor air support is (even in modern day which still makes some quite serious mistakes, but not by same factor as WW2).

The observation about point attacks is useful to know and bears out what I have seen with the game. Point attacks are too accurate and I often wonder if rockets really would make such large craters, but that is just my perception which would have no real world research...

Anyway nice to know information..

Thanks

[A Canadian Cat]

Interesting. This makes air support not so useful in the Nijmegen campaign (so far) as it's rare for the lone CAS/artillery spotter (the one they tell you not to lose under any circumstances) to have eyeballs on any specific targets, and so far most of the targets are under heavy forest, although often right on the edge of it.

Yes, the call time for air support along with the high chance of hitting your own forces even outside the target area mean that you need to setup the area as far away as possible from your troops. I usually use air support to harass the enemy's rear area and setup a delayed call during the setup phase. Once in a large and long scenario I actually had an FO make the call but I got him to the highest ground I could and still kept the call area as far away as possible from my troops.

[Lt Belenko]

I recently cheated against my regular PBEM opponent and purchased a plane with guns only. I targeted a small area on turn 2. 8 minutes later 2+ squads were at the exact spot when the strafing began. In 5 seconds 11 casualties.

More troops arrived at the spot when the guy was making his 2nd pass. LOL I'm loving it. First time I ever used a plane in CMBN.

[Kilroy Lurking]

A Heinkel 111 sunk two Destroyers in 1940 with bombs.

They were the German destroyer Z1 Leberecht Maass and the The German destroyer Z3 Max Schultz. Although some accounts say the latter may have also hit a mine as well.

David

[gunnersman]

"Point attack" is the way to go when targets are under cover of trees. Otherwise, if you use "area target" the flyboys love to attack YOU, I have found out the hard way. :mad: But then again, I tend to get too close.

[gunnersman]

On another note. Has anyone noticed the effects of strafing on targets that are under tree cover? I assume... and it appears... that trees seem to bring bullets to a complete and sudden stop and none get through to the target below.

I've never noticed this until Market Garden as I have never had much air support in any scenarios.

[womble]

... some accounts say the latter may have also hit a mine as well.

The mine being hit while desperately trying to evade the kinslayer flyboy's attack run while desperately signalling on the German equivalent of the Aldiss lamp, mayhap?