Curse of the Mark IV

[db_zero]

I've played some h2h and AI battles and it seems like the Panzer Mark 4 is very easily outclassed by Shermans. I've destroyed them easily with Shermans and lost them to Shermans without inflicting any kills.

This has been in Italy and Normandy. I was always under the impression they were equal to the Sherman.

I understand they are not in the class of the Panther or Tiger and were prewar tanks upgraded as the war progressed, but were they really badly outclassed by Shermans?

[Bil Hardenberger]

See this link where Charles does a comparison of the Pz-IV and the Sherman, he explains whats going on in these encounters: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1239443&postcount=303

That entire AAR might interest you if you have yet to read it: http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=95456

Bil

[Fenris]

At 'short' range I believe yes they are outclassed. By late war PzIVs need to be used almost like thin skinned tank hunters - ambushing, shoot n scooting and kept at range, I think the advantage doesn't swing back until something like 800m vs Shermans (or it might be 600m, sorry can't remember). Which is almost impossible to achieve in Normandy. Everything then usually boils down to who can get the first shot.

So use other assets to spot the enemy tanks at range and then setup accordingly if you can. At least that's the theory. Edit - or use them in groups so they can (try to) protect each other.

Good luck.

-F

[DavidFields]

I think of the Mk IV, my favorite AFV, as the quintessential infantry support tank. By this "late date", I try to keep them out of tank vs tank combat. At the close ranges seen in the usual current scenarios, I am almost tearful at how, as usual vulnerable as a German tank from the side and rear, to see them so easily shredded from almost anything from almost everywhere.

They are 1941 tanks in a 1944 war. It is incredible that they were still important.

[db_zero]

I'm happy to report that after reading all of this and looking at the AAR's my MkIV's have done quite well in my h2h game chalking up 2 confirmed and 1 probable kill of Shermans without suffering any losses.

Looks like you need to think of them as Sturmschutzs with turrets and use them as ambushers, not main battle tanks.

Some of the Shermans took 2-3 penetrating shots to the front hull and kept rolling along. They eventually succumbed to more hits fired from my lone Mark IV defending the flank.

[Ithikial_AU]

Just remember the Sherman's were outclassed by the Panther and Tiger as a main battle tank at the same time the Panzer IV was outclassed by the Sherman. I think that's where the 'illusion' of Sherman's being on par with Panzer IV's comes from as the Sherman could go head to head with this version of Panzer with pretty good odds.

The Allies had initially very little to go head to head with these later cats. (US Army especially early in the Normandy campaign).

[Freyberg]

At longish range, PzIV will often kill a Sherman. Games like 'The Quarry', with a large map, put the PzIV on a pretty even footing, if not a little ahead. Once Shermans are at close range, they will usually get the first shot, so as long they don't miss, they will win.

[womble]

The other advantage the IV has is its very low turret profile. If you can get hull down, they can be very difficult to spot at the long ranges where their gun is decidely better than the Sherman's. All stretches the optimal engagement range for PzIV vs Sherman.

[Oddball_E8]

TL;DR Keep your IV's at long ranges and hull down and they will be on par with Shermans.

Get close... and you'll die screaming... (well thats how most of my IV crews end up)

[John Kettler]

db_zero,

While you would've thought they'd uparmor the turret front, apparently they couldn't because of weight issues. Don't recall, though whether it was overall weight or turret weight. I do know weight and weight distribution (why the M10 needed the big turret rear counterweight) can badly screw up turret functioning, particularly if the traversing system isn't upgraded to deal with the increased load.

Still, I think a fully skirted Mark IV is one of the coolest looking tanks ever. Built the Monogram kit when I was a kid and remember how fearsome it looked. And that was straight from the box with no paint!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wodin]

More fun will be had with the Mark IV in the early War Russian Front games. Can't wait

[db_zero]

db_zero,

Still, I think a fully skirted Mark IV is one of the coolest looking tanks ever. Built the Monogram kit when I was a kid and remember how fearsome it looked. And that was straight from the box with no paint!

Regards,

John Kettler

I can't recall how many times I built the Monogram Mark IV. There was a bunch of the Monogram kits that I built-The Sherman which had the option to glue on the rhino horns, Sherman Calliope, Brumbar, Whirblewind, Whirlblewind Ostwind, Sturmschutz, Grant, Lee and the M-48 Patton.

Then there were the other Monogram kits-M3 Half-Track, Meat Chopper with quad 50's, 2.5 ton truck, Weasel and Jeep.

The instructions always had a nice historical notes on the front and came with the scenario building instructions-some were in full color.

Tamiya also made great kits. I still remember my parents taking me to the hobby store on my birthday. I picked out the 88mm Flak gun. Came with a messenger who rode a Zundapp motorcycle.