M20 won't fire buttoned

[poesel]

The M20 utility car won't fire its HMG unless you have it explicitly unbuttoned.

Neither an area fire order, an enemy in proximity or a direct target order on said enemy will get the buttoned crew to man the HMG and fire it.

I raised this issue with BFC and got the following answer:

'It appears that the M20 Armored/Utility car needs to have a crew member unbuttoned in order to fire the .50 cal MG. I guess the question may be, should crews automatically unbutton in the presence of enemy soldiers to fire the primary weapon ? This might be questionable behavior to happen automatically since this would potentially be true of tank commanders (or surviving crew members) who would unbutton to fire an externally mounted MG.

You may want to post this behavior on the forum and see what others think of it.'

So here we are.

My opinion wrt the M20 is: yes, they should unbutton because the HMG is the only weapon the M20 has. IMHO from a players view when you give a fire order you expect your pixeltroopers to do whatever is necessary to fire.

The same goes without fire orders. If you want to prevent them to unbutton you can always set a CA. With the current behaviour they will sit still in the presence of an enemy and wait to get slaughtered.

Vehicles with several weapon systems which they can fire buttoned are different and should continue to behave as they do now IMHO.

TL;DR: if you have no weapon to fire buttoned then unbutton to fire.

[SlowMotion]

IMO when making a fire command and if the game *knows* that some unit cannot use a weapon in its current state (buttoned/unbuttoned/shreck inside a building), the UI should somehow show it. Maybe show the firing line with some warning colour (like red or orange) or something? There were some similar cases in CMSF and it took me quite a while to find out.

[James Crowley]

Ditto with mortars.

Was trying to fire a 2" mortar and couldn't understand why it wouldn't, despite clear LoS and getting red targeting line.

Then realised, afterwards, that the range slightly exceeded the weapon's maximum, so it just sat there.

[John Kettler]

poesel71,

The M20 has a .50 cal for the very same reason most U.S. AFVs (and even some trucks) have it--air defense against things like the once real Stuka threat. The M20 is not a fighting vehicle per se, but a command vehicle which fights only when absolutely necessary or safe to do so. The M8s are the shooters. Ideally, the M20 would shoot, preferably from good cover, only when there's little or no risk of return fire. The .50 would be manned on road march and when moving tactically and in battle, but the M20 has no business on the sharp end. I do take your point regarding default status. That should be unbuttoned, not buttoned. To see what I mean regarding the role of the M20, may I suggest

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!

"Cats Chasing Dogs," since it covers the very formation which has the M20?

Regards,

John Kettler

[poesel]

Would someone please opine on the actual question asked? (weird request, I know )

This is about the behaviour of the M20 crew not about changing the target arrow (although I would like that) or the tactical use of the M20.

[Erwin]

+1 At the very least, it would be extremely helpful if there was some sort of warning/notification when you select that unit that the weapon cannot be fired unless unbuttoned (or in the case of some MG's, deployed since some can fire undeployed).

There are several instances in the CM2 engine where things don't work "as expected" (eg LOS issues etc) and it takes a long time and someone like you pointing the problem out to enable the average player to understand why.

[YankeeDog]

Hmmm... honestly I'm not sure, but here's my thoughts at the moment.

I'll break my thoughts down into two sections: First, what the Unit AI should do on its own (should an M20 unbutton on its own to fire at a spotted enemy?), and second, what the unit should do in response to a direct Target order from the player.

As to the first, I would say *usually* the M20 should not unbutton of its own volition to fire at a spotted enemy. The M20 is a very lightly armed and armored scout vehicle. It's not designed to slug it out with the enemy. Further, as of 2.01, IME, unbuttoned vehicle commanders very vulnerable to small arms fire. It's therefore a *bad* idea to leave vehicle commanders unbuttoned in any situation where they might come under accurate small arms fire. So, if I've told a vehicle to button up, I usually want it to stay that way. With a vehicle like an M20, generally what I'd prefer to see as TacAI reaction to any significant contact would be to reverse and try to break contact.

Now, what should happen in response to player target orders: I don't remember experiencing this personally, but I can definitely see myself forgetting to unbutton a vehicle like when issuing a target order, and it would definitely be frustrating if the expected area fire never happened because the vehicle was buttoned. At the same time, if the AI was set so that the TC unbuttoned automatically in response to a target order, I can also see myself inadvertently "forcing" a TC to unbutton when this is not a good idea.

I think the ideal solution would be some sort of warning accompanying the target line -- "Buttoned-No Gunner", or something like this. This would tell me that I need to unbutton to get the effect of the Target order. If this can't be done, then I guess I would lean towards having the TC unbutton automatically in response to a target order. Not ideal, but all factors considered, I think this would be the better behavior.

[womble]

Interesting to compare the behaviour the other way round for "undercrewed" tanks like the Italian TDs/SPGs and obsolete R35s in FI, which automatically button when firing because the guy who has his head out when buttoned has a function in operating the weapon. They pop up again between shots, often.

In the cases where there's one weapon system, which has to have a crewman unbuttoned to fire, it seems reasonable for an explicit fire order, or a TacAI self-preservation reaction to inherently unbutton the requisite crew to undertake the requested action. This would apply to half track crews too, I guess. It should, IMO, apply to the passengers if they're given a Target command too.

[MG TOW]

The average life span of an unbuttoned M20 gunner is about 3 seconds anyways...so micro managing him to take the gun may allow him to live a little longer

[JonS]

My opinion wrt the M20 is: yes, they should unbutton because the HMG is the only weapon the M20 has.

Well, the doctrinal response to this is that the primary weapons of the M-20 are the crew's eyeballs and the vehicle's radio, NOT the HMG

[dieseltaylor]

Given the range of the .50" I would think there must have been plenty of opportunity to lay off in support of an attack and hose targets beyond the enemies ability to reply. Or hosing down interesting clumps of trees which were on the side of a road you were to scout down.

Plus and minuses were it was lightly armoured, vulnerable to mines ...as in crew survivability, and very quiet.

[womble]

Given the range of the .50" I would think there must have been plenty of opportunity to lay off in support of an attack and hose targets beyond the enemies ability to reply. Or hosing down interesting clumps of trees which were on the side of a road you were to scout down.

IIRC, having tried to use the vehicle for that, I found that it really doesn't have enough ammo for speculative area fire.

...and very quiet.

If I was trying to be discrete, I wouldn't be hosing down stuff that I didn't know posed a threat... Pretty sure .50cal is both loud and distinctive enough to make the mufflers on the exhaust somewhat redundant.

[dieseltaylor]

Good idea womble not to use the 0.50" when trying to be discreet. : )

[slysniper]

Hey, the question is NOT if the M20 should be used that way.

There is plenty of weapons in the game being used in ways that really is not good doctrine or was not something commonly done in R.L.

But the basis of the request is, should any weapon do what it takes to fulfill the request of the command given. If you request the M20 to fire, it should use its AI to open up, expose its crewman and fire its weapon if you have requested it. At least until something on the battlefield stops it from doing such, like a little return fire.

I dont like the concept of the game just given me warning that something is not going to work and then I have to input some different commands to get it to work. When I make a request, the game should try to fulfill it if at all possible.

As mentioned, this happens more than just here, I have found at times, I am watching units do nothing for a minute in HTH, because I have requested actions that for some reason it presently cannot do.

The goal for the game maker should be to improve the units AI to do request when there is a logical way to do it. Not program flags to let you the player know it will not do a request because it is not programmed in the game to perform it.

I think BF's goals are along these lines. But it is not a simple task to get all units to do all things that one might think possible. But I say, if a effort is to be made, stay with the concept of making the units smarter as to request made by the user.

[dieseltaylor]

+1 to that sly

[poesel]

Since this thread has slipped to page 2 it has been discussed here and I've done my duty.

Just one thing to add - which I'm wondering no one has brought up: the 251/1 for instance will automatically open up and fire if ordered to. So I see no reason why the M20 should behave differently.

[Sublime]

I also wish we could acquire stuff and issue move orders, and not have to lose a turn...

[Michael Emrys]

I also wish we could acquire stuff and issue move orders, and not have to lose a turn...

Well, if you do it in that order, you can. What you can't do is issue them an order to mount the vehicle and then in the same turn acquire. Which I suppose you meant to say but didn't.

Michael

[sfhand]

...

'It appears that the M20 Armored/Utility car needs to have a crew member unbuttoned in order to fire the .50 cal MG. I guess the question may be, should crews automatically unbutton in the presence of enemy soldiers to fire the primary weapon ? This might be questionable behavior to happen automatically since this would potentially be true of tank commanders (or surviving crew members) who would unbutton to fire an externally mounted MG.

...

The question and its implications don't seem desirable to me. I take them to mean there will be no 'fix' for specifically for the M20, but rather all vehicles. Personally, I prefer to determine when my vehicles unbutton. I'd be pretty annoyed if I started losing commanders because my tanks were firing their main guns.

[poesel]

I'd be pretty annoyed if I started losing commanders because my tanks were firing their main guns.

As stated above this is about vehicles with only one gun and the gun can only be fired unbuttoned. The German SPWs do unbutton automatically while the M20 does not.

[Sublime]

Well, if you do it in that order, you can. What you can't do is issue them an order to mount the vehicle and then in the same turn acquire. Which I suppose you meant to say but didn't.

Michael

heh. yes quite.