Wish for the next CM-Engine: Avoidance Order

[h3st4by]

Hello :cool:,

I think for increased realism and better control of your units in WEGO there should be an Avoidance-Order-possibility:

In WEGO, if I move into contact with a small force (one vehicle or a Fire team) I use the Hunt-Order to have maximal awareness. If I am

shot at, out of an ambush, my small force stopps (maybe also buttons up or goes to ground) and holds its position. Often it comes soon under heavy

fire and is killed or pinned etc..

I have the same problem if i am the defender and try to ambush the attacker with a small force (e.g. some emey tanks with one infantry tank

hunter team); the small force attacks out of their ambush and maybe destroyes one of the attacking units, but very soon the other attacker be

aware of this ambush and use all their Fire Power to pound my small force to peaces because it stays in place till its are dead or its moral collapses.

I think this a little bit a suicide scouting/behavior, i would like to order this soldiers to evade soon they are shot at (their suppression indicator rises); in realtime-modein this situation i can push the "take evasive action button" but in WEGO I have to wait till the next order-phase is reached, but often this is to late and my small force is wiped out.

Maybe there could be some ways to solve this problem:

1. One gets aggressiv-level-buttons für each unit, e.g.:

a. Avoidance -> take evasive action after first suppression indicator line reached

b. Carefull -> take evasive action after 2/3 of suppression indicator line reached

c. Fight -> behavior like now

2. An avoidance special command:

As alternativ hide-order. If one aktivate this order-button the unit is in an Avoidance mode and (if it moves or not) it takes evasive action asa soon as its suppression indicator rises.

Maybe one could optionally pre-devine the waypoint this unit evades if it has to evade.

Sorry for this long posting and sorry for my bad english ,

h3s

[SlowMotion]

I agree that sometimes it would be nice if units could leave a place when being fired.

But this should be possible for AI units also.

So IMO the best solution would be implementing triggers where some event causes an action. Like "if fired with heavy weapons (tanks/guns/arty), move to position X". or "after 10 minutes move to position Y"

Something like this could take scenarios to another level.

[Erwin]

+1 if programming this is practicable. There are SO many conditions to be evaluated and it would be easy for the "pinned" troops to do something else equally annoying.

[womble]

When you're playing WeGo, you have to account for that fact. So if you're going to pop a unit out into the middle of a potential killzone, don't give it "Hunt" orders unless dropping prone will drop them OOS (behind a wall, perhaps). Give them an order into the danger zone, then an order back where they came from, if you aren't "committed" to taking whatever territory they're crossing just yet. So, you lose a minute if they don't get fired on, rather than losing an entire team if they do.

Or give them Fast orders to whatever cover you're heading for, so they don't shilly shally about, returning fire. If the incoming is enough to pin them in the open they're crossing, they were probably toast whatever movement order you gave them in the given situation, and your mistakes really started a few minutes ago with insufficient [ reconnaisance | speculative suppressive fire ]...

Horses for courses, if you absolutely must attempt "recon by death".

[Broadsword56]

Good advice on this thread about when and when not to use HUNT.

While I too would like to see some sort of SOPs in CM, they're unlikely to happen. And while the game engine has definite limits and flaws, I think there's also a tendency to blame the game first, when a bit more thinking/learning about tactics might also address the problem.

Don't just send scouts out to get shot at unless you have overwatching forces that can cover them and respond to the fire. If they can't be covered, then make sure it's the smallest possible team and try to think about exit routes and rally points. Split a small patrol or recon unit into two elements, so one can cover while the other moves. Be sure they have smoke grenades so they can pop it if ambushed.

Know the difference between a near ambush and a far ambush, and the proper reaction to each: In a far ambush, use FAST to get the endangered element out of the killzone ASAP, back the way they came. In a near ambush, the better tactic (if you haven't already been pinned) is actually to assault immediately right into it. That's because it gets you out of the killzone faster, and changes the geometry of the enemy's plan -- when you're right in their position they're disrupted and thrown on the defensive, can't sit and aim, and have a much harder time hitting you without also shooting each other.

Sometimes though, a good ambush is a good ambush and you're just going to have to pay the price. War is hell.

[Erwin]

"Give them an order into the danger zone, then an order back where they came from..."

Interesting tactic... Will try that. Usually I use a combination of HUNT and QUICK, hardly ever use FAST. Not sure I see any observable difference other than units tire quickly on FAST (plus IIRC they are more likely to keep running to the next waypoint rather than seeking cover).

[Childress]

Interesting tactic... Will try that. Usually I use a combination of HUNT and QUICK, hardly ever use FAST. Not sure I see any observable difference other than units tire quickly on FAST

I did a test a while back: units will noticeably accelerate for the first 50m or so using Fast. They'll outrun soldiers using Quick. But, IMO, the various speeds and resulting fatigue could use some fine tuning. For example, I find Crawling/Slow excessively tiring and Quick too forgiving in that regard over distance.

[Baneman]

... For example, I find Crawling/Slow excessively tiring ...

Definitely agree with this, when I did a lot of caving we often crawled very long distances.

Granted there was no incoming, but we couldn't get up We didn't have military gear to lug along, but plenty of other stuff ( SRT gear, climbing equipment etc. )

[Wicky]

Use hunt with a hide order at the end - If they then come into contact then they hit the dirt till you give them orders next turn.

[Peregrine]

Keep in mind the current "take evasive action" (withdraw button) can have some pretty wacky results. Especially vehicles.

Retreating to somewhere safe is obvious from the players perspective but the TAC AI does not do this particularly well currently so having it kicking in sooner probably wouldn't be something that works well.

[womble]

Keep in mind the current "take evasive action" (withdraw button) can have some pretty wacky results. Especially vehicles.

Retreating to somewhere safe is obvious from the players perspective but the TAC AI does not do this particularly well currently so having it kicking in sooner probably wouldn't be something that works well.

Though in v2's iteration of the engine, you can move the TacAI's flaky destination, and change the movement mode, without dampening the enthusiasm to get the flock out of Dodge, so it's better than v1's version where you took what the TacAI decided to do and liked it

[Childress]

Definitely agree with this, when I did a lot of caving we often crawled very long distances.

Crawling should be tiring. But not THAT tiring. They're wasted after 30m.

[womble]

Crawling should be tiring. But not THAT tiring. They're wasted after 30m.

'Pends what you mean by "wasted". They may be "Tired", sure, but that just means they can't Fast until they've rested a bit. IME, they're not "Fatigued" or "Exhausted" after a 4AS creep. "Tired" is probably a bit of an overstatement of how the PBI are feeling; I know modern military fitness levels are a bit better than WW2, but even back then, feeling "tired" after jogging 1500m non-stop in battlegear would get a sour look (and probably another mile's run) from a DS.

[Michael Emrys]

I did a test a while back: units will noticeably accelerate for the first 50m or so using Fast. They'll outrun soldiers using Quick.

My intuitive impression is that Quick represents a jogging pace that the soldiers can maintain for long periods if the terrain is not difficult. Fast represents an all-out dash like the devil is on your tail and is bound to wear out anyone running on even the best ground very quickly.

But, IMO, the various speeds and resulting fatigue could use some fine tuning. For example, I find Crawling/Slow excessively tiring...

Agree 200%. I've never been able to figure out why the fatigue factor for Slow was set so high nor why it still has not been adjusted downward.

Michael

[womble]

I've never been able to figure out why the fatigue factor for Slow was set so high nor why it still has not been adjusted downward.

I wonder if it's to offset its other advantages. If it didn't wear my troops out so horribly, I'd use it for almost any movement where contact may occur...

[Michael Emrys]

I wonder if it's to offset its other advantages. If it didn't wear my troops out so horribly, I'd use it for almost any movement where contact may occur...

Would you be crawling them more than, say, 32 m? I'm not saying they shouldn't get tired, just that they seem to me to get tired unreasonably soon.

Michael

[Quintus Sertorius]

...they seem to me to get tired unreasonably soon.

That's been my impression as well, although I don't have any objective data to support it.

[Childress]

Would you be crawling them more than, say, 32 m? I'm not saying they shouldn't get tired, just that they seem to me to get tired unreasonably soon.

Right, based on a hunch. The fatigue parameters might be liberalized a bit. These are, supposedly, fit men. At times it feels like we're commanding a battalion of Governor Christies.

[John Kettler]

h3st4by,

Welcome aboard!

If we ever get an "Avoid" order, the default should be "Do X, but, if militarily practicable, avoid getting killed." Our pixeltruppen are entirely too enthusiastic when it comes to risking their fragile selves in mortal combat, so need better self-preservation coding. Meanwhile, you, their commander, must watch over them by effectively combining Cover arc and Cover Armor arc (latter via 2.0 upgrade) with Hide orders and proper use of cover and concealment.

This is NOT to say, though, that I've done well translating theory into practice, particularly since I came in from CMx1 directly and am used to routinely placing cover Armor arcs, only to find them missing from CMBN. Their absence led to heavy casualties among my bazooka teams, until I learned to separate them from the squad and control them directly. My Panzerschreck teams seem to have better sense, better terrain and are lucky. All of which help. Bazookas 0. Panzerschrecks 1 Stuart.

Regards,

John Kettler

[agusto]

+1 for customizable SOPs.

Crawling should be tiring. But not THAT tiring. They're wasted after 30m.

IMO the SLOW command we currently have models 2 different styles of military crawling wich is IMO why it appears to be excessively exhausting. IRL you can crawl as you see it animated in the game (using knees and arms) but you can also "crawl" just using your hands wich on the one hand provides more conceament because you keep a lower profile but on the other hand is much more exhausting. The SLOW command in the game is probably something between those 2 crawling styles.

[womble]

Would you be crawling them more than, say, 32m?

Sometimes, yes.

I'm not saying they shouldn't get tired, just that they seem to me to get tired unreasonably soon.

I think some folks worry too much about "Tired" status. It doesn't mean they need to lie down and have a nap; they just can't hit "max speed".

[agusto]

I think some folks worry too much about "Tired" status. It doesn't mean they need to lie down and have a nap; they just can't hit "max speed".

What worries me most about the "Tired" status is that it is next to "Exhausted" and exhausted units really almost litterally need to lie down and take nap in order to recover.

[womble]

What worries me most about the "Tired" status is that it is next to "Exhausted" and exhausted units really almost litterally need to lie down and take nap in order to recover.

Nope. There's "Fatigued" between "Tired" and "Exhausted".

[Michael Emrys]

I think some folks worry too much about "Tired" status. It doesn't mean they need to lie down and have a nap; they just can't hit "max speed".

Doesn't it effect anything else? I am pretty sure it was said back when BN was released or soon after, that tired units do not spot as well or use their weapons as well and their morale is slightly more fragile. Anyway, I try to go a little slower and keep my troops in a rested state as much as I can. I don't know if I actually gain much by playing that way, but I don't think I lose much either. So far, I've never run out of time or was unable to achieve my objectives. But then, I don't play MEs, and in those it might make a difference.

Michael

[womble]

Doesn't it effect anything else? I am pretty sure it was said back when BN was released or soon after, that tired units do not spot as well or use their weapons as well and their morale is slightly more fragile. Anyway, I try to go a little slower and keep my troops in a rested state as much as I can. I don't know if I actually gain much by playing that way, but I don't think I lose much either. So far, I've never run out of time or was unable to achieve my objectives. But then, I don't play MEs, and in those it might make a difference.

Michael

I remember the same things being mentioned, but if they do, I've found the advantage of getting to where they're going sooner seems to at least compensate for any penalties they suffer. I do try and keep them short of "Tired" where I can, but I don't let it bother me if I have to make ma doggies run.