Unbelievable!!!

[James Crowley]

In a current game my opponent had breached a section of bocage and sent through some half-tracks. I was able to KO a HT in the created gap and was happy that I had effectively sealed-off at least that line of approach.

Imagine my surprise when another HT magically ‘ghosted’ through the KO’ed one… followed by yet more and more!!!

WTF I cried!

My oppo explained that there was a ‘problem’ with gaps that had apparently been ‘unresolved’. Really?

I remember reporting major ‘clipping’ issues, whereby vehicles could all merge into each other, way back when CMSF first came out. I had sort of assumed that such issues had been dealt with.

It seems not.

I tested this out with a bridge and, surprise, surprise…. vehicles just ‘ghost’ through each other, such that a KO’d tank will not block vehicular access.

Not to mince words, this is total bollocks.

I remember detailed discussions on the forum about tanks not being able to push other tanks or vehicles. And another, more heated one, about tanks not being able to cross bocage under any circumstances.

In extremis, tanks could and did push other tanks vehicles out of the way, albeit slowly. It may not have been a common practice but it’s occasional use is a least somewhat believable.

Ditto with tanks crossing bocage; Churchills certainly did so and it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that other tanks did as well, again on an occasional basis only.

But no, both of these possibilities, were soundly poo-pooed as being too uncommon and unrealistic to be allowed.

However, it seems it is fine to allow tanks to ghost through each other where there is a restriction in space, i.e where they cannot be manoeuvred around. Again, really?

Aside from the nonsense this makes of tactics in these types of situation, the aesthetics of tanks passing through each other is hardly pleasing. Not exactly an immersion holder.

Given the efforts that have been put into this game series to make it both realistic as well as fun, I am amazed and, quite frankly, disappointed that this, IMO, major issue has not been satisfactorily addressed this far into the development cycle. This is close to a game breaker for me.

[agusto]

Given the efforts that have been put into this game series to make it both realistic as well as fun, I am amazed and, quite frankly, disappointed that this, IMO, major issue has not been satisfactorily addressed this far into the development cycle. This is close to a game breaker for me.

It is indeed suprising that they couldnt figure out a better solution for vehicles passing through blocked gaps. But for me, it is not a game breaker because situations as you described it, where the clipping has an actual tactical impact on the game are quite rare, even if it is not nice to look at.

[Holien]

Here are some shots to help explain.

The gap IMO is not totally blocked but it is causing graphically glitches as shown by these shots.

Panther in Half Track1 by msj_1, on Flickr

Panther in Half Track2 by msj_1, on Flickr

Panther in Half Track3 by msj_1, on Flickr

I do not think it is a show stopper as it is just a game and nothing can ever be perfect.

The gap being blocked has delayed me and caused me problems so by "blocking it" it has given Jim a good advantage.

For me this game has been a Zooka fest and I only wish they worked as well for me as they have done in this game...

Obviously it would be good if it could be improved but I guess we are limited by Technology and if it could be sorted it would be...

Anyway hope these images help explain..

H

[Holien]

It is indeed suprising that they couldnt figure out a better solution for vehicles passing through blocked gaps. But for me, it is not a game breaker because situations as you described it, where the clipping has an actual tactical impact on the game are quite rare, even if it is not nice to look at.

Yes agree I do not view it as game breaker, a slight annoyance but not a game breaker or even close.

Jim does get quite passionate and comes at it with a different perspective.

[YankeeDog]

*Shrug*. Certainly not the most elegant aspect of the game engine in its current state, but also not a game breaker for me nor even on my top ten list of desired engine improvements/fixes.

If it really bothers you that much, maybe you should go play Peggle er sumfink instead.

[Holman]

Given how important it can be to open up a gap, I'm happy to imagine this issue as a partial compensation for not being able to push wrecks outs of the way.

[Paulverisor64]

This would not be a game breaker per se; but in certain circumstances such as this it would break James chances of winning the game. If you run into enough of this type of game changing bugs it does become a game breaker.

I've also discovered that destroyed vehicles do not give any cover. Once you find out you adjust but it does take you out of the game immersion somewhat.

It would seem that the developers could find some kind of a technical solution to the issue that James has run into.

[womble]

I've also discovered that destroyed vehicles do not give any cover...

They do give cover to infantry, and burning vehicles give concealment to all units.

[Holien]

but in certain circumstances such as this it would break James chances of winning the game. If you run into enough of this type of game changing bugs it does become a game breaker.

FYI this has not broken Jims chances of winning and if anything has helped him, but I won't go into too much details as the game is still in progress...

I can see people getting vexed but there is a gap and IRL the Panther would push it's way through. In the game it has just danced all over the gap and not gone through.

So in this situation IMO it really has had no negative effect for Jim.

Of course he is very welcome to claim otherwise. Especially if he loses. (Which I doubt at the moment based upon what I know. But of course I will be doing my hardest to win despite a whole bunch of set backs like the AI running a Squad not into a building but next to the building where upon they got shot to bits.... But hey that is war and not a game breaker for me, I just grin (or scream) and bear it...)

[Father Ted]

Those screenies make it look like this is happening at the edge of the map. Could this affect the vehicles' behaviour?

[Georgie]

Given how important it can be to open up a gap, I'm happy to imagine this issue as a partial compensation for not being able to push wrecks outs of the way.

I agree. In CMX 1 wrecks could be pushed out of the way but can't in CM2.

[Holien]

Those screenies make it look like this is happening at the edge of the map. Could this affect the vehicles' behaviour?

Yes at edge of map... I hug edges...

It could be the AI does not deal well with edges? The Engineer Half Track is floating off edge and the AI drove it there, not me in attempt to flee Dead Eye John the now dead Bazooka man who will no doubt get a Medal of Honour for all the hits he got on my Half Tracks!!!

[Broadsword56]

It would be more of a serious flaw once the series gets to Market-Garden.

How do we reproduce the tactical limitations of Hell's Highway if we have a raised road and the Allies can just sail smoothly northward through any wrecked tank or vehicle in the way?

One could argue that the clipping represents pushing the vehicle off the road. But that would have taken more time, during which the traffic would back up and remain vulnerable to enemy fire.

The limitations of the single road in M-G are as distinctive to that campaign as the bocage was to The Normandy campaign. So I hope it can be fixed.

If not, I'd play M-G with a house rule that a vehicle getting wrecked on a raised road blocks movement for the rest of the battle. And raised roads would have marsh or heavy woods tiles (without trees) along the shoulders to prevent vehicles moving off them.

[Doug Williams]

I agree. In CMX 1 wrecks could be pushed out of the way but can't in CM2.

Several things were done better in CM1 than in CM2, IMO, such as Command Lines, Moveable Waypoints (though we have those now), and the random map generator for QBs. Don't get me wrong, I'm not going back to CM1.

[Holien]

It would be good if it can be sorted especially if a tank gets knocked out as in effect it should block the path.

Smaller vehicles could be pushed away and as long as the code allowed for that it would be good.

As a player it would be annoying that a gap got blocked when something larger and heavier would in real life push it aside....

The game is getting better and better and the HMG improvements are something where a bit of feeback from the players has influenced some changes.

Maybe something will be possible for the future, but either way will not stop me from playing the game.

[Quintus Sertorius]

It would be more of a serious flaw once the series gets to Market-Garden.

Good point.

[JRMC1879]

Well, slight over reation. I cant guess but would like to know out of all the probably millions of individual tactical situations that developed during the war

how many were actually relevant to one tank getting in the way of another ? Someone bought up market garden - but I am sure vehicles getting in the way of each other were much less important than the fact it was a single road the germans could easily road block a hundred times over and lay artillery fire on. After all - if tanks can push each other out of the way, a tank comes along and pushes the other one out of the way. then its no longer in the way and the issue is irrelevant.

[James Crowley]

Well, slight over reation. I cant guess but would like to know out of all the probably millions of individual tactical situations that developed during the war

how many were actually relevant to one tank getting in the way of another ? Someone bought up market garden - but I am sure vehicles getting in the way of each other were much less important than the fact it was a single road the germans could easily road block a hundred times over and lay artillery fire on. After all - if tanks can push each other out of the way, a tank comes along and pushes the other one out of the way. then its no longer in the way and the issue is irrelevant.

Yes, but that is the point. They are not pushing other vehicles out of the way, which in some circumstances would be acceptable, they are ghosting through with virtually no impedement to movement, particularly over bridges. Had that occured at Arnhem Bridge, Grabners attck would have simply floated through the tangle of vehicles and Frost would have lost the bridge at that point. So I think this is massively relevant.

I don't know how many times such issues arose in RL during the war either but so what; you are happy to have something happen which is completely impossible and contrary to the known laws of physics?

But heyho, just so long as German helmets are the right shape and the belt buckes are accurate, who cares about the laws of physics, eh. To hell with reality just listen to the bangs and get on with the game and lets pretend it never happened.

[James Crowley]

It would be more of a serious flaw once the series gets to Market-Garden.

How do we reproduce the tactical limitations of Hell's Highway if we have a raised road and the Allies can just sail smoothly northward through any wrecked tank or vehicle in the way?

One could argue that the clipping represents pushing the vehicle off the road. But that would have taken more time, during which the traffic would back up and remain vulnerable to enemy fire.

The limitations of the single road in M-G are as distinctive to that campaign as the bocage was to The Normandy campaign. So I hope it can be fixed.

If not, I'd play M-G with a house rule that a vehicle getting wrecked on a raised road blocks movement for the rest of the battle. And raised roads would have marsh or heavy woods tiles (without trees) along the shoulders to prevent vehicles moving off them.

You raise a very good point about MG but why on earth should we need to use a house rule. CMx1, 12 year old technology, didn't have this nonsense so why do we have to try and compensate for it now. This behaviour just shouldn't be acceptable in game boasting this level of fidelity.

[James Crowley]

It would be good if it can be sorted especially if a tank gets knocked out as in effect it should block the path.

Smaller vehicles could be pushed away and as long as the code allowed for that it would be good.

As a player it would be annoying that a gap got blocked when something larger and heavier would in real life push it aside....

The game is getting better and better and the HMG improvements are something where a bit of feeback from the players has influenced some changes.

Maybe something will be possible for the future, but either way will not stop me from playing the game.

Totally agree with all of that and Holien knows I have no issue with what he is able to do, only the fact that the engine allows it.

He approaches the situation from a gamers point of view, with a view to winning, whereas I look more to the simulation, although I enjoy the game aspect as well. If it doesn't look or feel right then it rapidly decreases my enjoyment.

Game breaker may have been overstating the issue but IMO it is an important one. This is not a feature it is a major bug and should be, no should have been, fixed a long time ago.

[JRMC1879]

Yes, but that is the point. They are not pushing other vehicles out of the way, which in some circumstances would be acceptable, they are ghosting through with virtually no impedement to movement, particularly over bridges. Had that occured at Arnhem Bridge, Grabners attck would have simply floated through the tangle of vehicles and Frost would have lost the bridge at that point. So I think this is massively relevant.

I don't know how many times such issues arose in RL during the war either but so what; you are happy to have something happen which is completely impossible and contrary to the known laws of physics?

But heyho, just so long as German helmets are the right shape and the belt buckes are accurate, who cares about the laws of physics, eh. To hell with reality just listen to the bangs and get on with the game and lets pretend it never happened.

Jesus - you need to take a chill pill pal. Your point doesnt become more relevant the more you are an arse about it. I didnt say it was a good thing - merely that you are - in the context of the game - seriously overstating its importance. I too cant see why its an issue - but you called it a "game breaker". Also - you only point to the one most famous example - name me another where it was relevant. I too would like it to be resolved but hyperbole is useful in making a point - exaggerating means your point is lost. And just so you know, I could give a f**k about the shape of german helments, so long as they are not triangles.

And just for the record - Grabners attack consisted of 22 vehicles. 5 of which passed through unscathed as they took the british by surprise and 12 of the remaining ones were destroyed by mines, piats and hand grenades. they were already on the northern ramp at the time and in no contemparary account I have read does it mention - vehicles getting in each others way was what caused the attack to fail at all.

Sure if you watch A bridge too far and want to take that as history you might think that - but they show most of the vehicles being destroyed in a bunch in the middle of the bridge and the british waiting for them when that is not what happened at all. All the german vehicles made it to the northern ramp and their progress was stopped by mines that had been laid and not a single vehicle was destroyed in the central span of the bridge itself - so even in that example you would need to point me to an account that says it was at all material to the tactical situation.

[Vinnart]

This is one of those things that just works better in the game environment to make pathfinding smoother, and less frustrating. Also, it avoids making road blocks by simply putting a vehicle in an opening, and dismounting the crew. I have no problem with it being as it is in that regard. Sure, it would be cool to push stuff out of the way with a tank, but IMO it probably is more work for BF than it is important.

[c3k]

Frustrating? Yes, at times. The reasons given for the "ghost-through" has been due to pathfinding issues. YOU may be able to figure out a path, but the TacAI cannot. As of yet. I, too, would hope that a better compromise gets put into the game, but there are many other competing claims on the development times.

Ken

[womble]

This is not a feature it is a major bug...

Wrong. It is categorically not a bug. It's just the way the game has been coded to cope with pathing shenanigans and woolly situations that are difficult to simulate computationally. ugs are issues where the code is not working as intended.

...and should be, no should have been, fixed a long time ago.

Maybe. What else should have been dropped from the development schedule to permit us to have this game in its current state? Note that this is a rhetorical question that neither you nor I are qualified to answer because we have no realistic conception of the amount of work that would be required to code and test any given aspect of the game. But you can be assured that it would take more than "no" time and that therefore something else would be missing.

The issue of pushing or not pushing has been discussed to death. You're adding nothing new to the conversation.

[thebigJ_A]

With respect, how is collision detection, something that's been in games for ages, something that would prevent features being in the game? And even if it were, how is that relevant? That's like if a bunch of textures were missing, and rather than agreeing it be fixed, one argues that putting those textures in would have taken time from something else that we'd not now have. In the strictest sense it might be true (then again, it might not. It's not necessarily a zero-sum game.) but that wouldn't bear on the validity of the complaint.

An object comes into contact with another object, it stops. It hasn't got to be perfect, or even nearly so. A little clipping on the edges is to be expected (though less and less as the years go by). Running straight through 2/3rds of an object just shouldn't happen.

And tactically speaking, wasn't it a basic practice to knock out the first and last vehicle in a column, precisely because the others would be trapped, or at least slowed?

To be clear, I don't think it's game-breaking by any measure, and I think the OP got a little hyperbolic. In principle, though, I agree. It's not too much to expect. I'm still new to this game, and am enjoying myself immensely, but I've had this effect happen and it took me right out of things. I'm here for the simulation, among other things, after all. (And to be clear in another respect, I'm not talking about any "pushing" debate. Just simple collision and clipping, which I took to be the OP's fundamental problem.)

Just an opinion, no strong emotions here.