US Weapons Platoon C2

[LukeFF]

I'd really like to see a fix for how C2 works for the US Weapons platoon. Right now, it is patently ridiculous that the HQ Support Team, sitting there with a perfectly good radio, cannot provide a radio link to spotters attempting to call in mortar fire. If a radio-equipped vehicle from any random formation can provide C2 for mortar fire, then it surely stands to reason that the senior noncom who is part of the platoon should be able to relay firing coordinates for the mortar tubes as well.

[Badger73]

I'd really like to see a fix for how C2 works for the US Weapons platoon. Right now, it is patently ridiculous that the HQ Support Team, sitting there with a perfectly good radio, cannot provide a radio link to spotters attempting to call in mortar fire. If a radio-equipped vehicle from any random formation can provide C2 for mortar fire, then it surely stands to reason that the senior noncom who is part of the platoon should be able to relay firing coordinates for the mortar tubes as well.

Gosh, I didn't realize that mortar sections could not use the HQ Support team radio for C2! It's exactly what I'm trying to do in my current game scenario where no one can call for fires through that comm link. It was driving me crazy!

You're right; this makes no sense at all. I agree that it should be fixed. Does anyone know why the code works that way now?

[BLSTK]

I'd really like to see a fix for how C2 works for the US Weapons platoon. Right now, it is patently ridiculous that the HQ Support Team, sitting there with a perfectly good radio, cannot provide a radio link to spotters attempting to call in mortar fire. If a radio-equipped vehicle from any random formation can provide C2 for mortar fire, then it surely stands to reason that the senior noncom who is part of the platoon should be able to relay firing coordinates for the mortar tubes as well.

I totally agree LukeFF. I wrongly assumed HQ Support could call in a mortar strike, only to realize the only "support" he was willing to give was as a fourth man playing euchre. Needless to say, he made an excellent screen for my scout team...for one round anyway.

[Vinnart]

I use the HQ support as a foward observer, and keep the platoon HQ with MGS, or Coy commander, or a jeep with a radio back with the mortars. This keeps good C2. I do agree though that the Sgt. should be able to have some command effect with the radio to link to mortars.

[DavidFields]

I am going to give this a shot:

The inaccuracy is probably about the random vehicle being able to call in mortar support. From a doctrinaire and practical point, I don't think the units in WW2 were as flexible in C2 (which is, to my knowledge, not a term they even used then).

Allowing weapon platoon support teams to call in mortar fire would probably historically overpower their actual abilities of that era.

Of course, one could argue that since, theoretically, they could do it, I guess, we should be able to do it. That involves some subtle game design decisions--which could be argued. I tend to like game design decisions that encourage actual WW2 reality, but that, I will admit, is only a preference.

Radios were a huge leap from the usual visual and hand signal communication. Although the US units had more of them than other armies of the time, I think their use was still not quite settled.

[MG TOW]

I am going to give this a shot:

The inaccuracy is probably about the random vehicle being able to call in mortar support. From a doctrinaire and practical point, I don't think the units in WW2 were as flexible in C2 (which is, to my knowledge, not a term they even used then).

Allowing weapon platoon support teams to call in mortar fire would probably historically overpower their actual abilities of that era.

Of course, one could argue that since, theoretically, they could do it, I guess, we should be able to do it. That involves some subtle game design decisions--which could be argued. I tend to like game design decisions that encourage actual WW2 reality, but that, I will admit, is only a preference.

Radios were a huge leap from the usual visual and hand signal communication. Although the US units had more of them than other armies of the time, I think their use was still not quite settled.

I had a Coy XO team (in CFMI) that had a radio, but they could not relay the fire mission from the FO team. I had to get the XO team to switch places with the FO team and the fire mission was enabled, but 4min instead. I think there needs to be a little refinement based on how many active nets are in use. Sure sticking another platoon's HQ may be beyond their ability especially if they are from another Coy, but in a single company scenario the HQ and XO teams would be on a company net with the FO and Coy mortars.

[LukeFF]

I am going to give this a shot:

The inaccuracy is probably about the random vehicle being able to call in mortar support. From a doctrinaire and practical point, I don't think the units in WW2 were as flexible in C2 (which is, to my knowledge, not a term they even used then).

Allowing weapon platoon support teams to call in mortar fire would probably historically overpower their actual abilities of that era.

But then, what's the point of the HQ Support Team having its own radio? Right now, with their inability to relay firing instructions to the mortar teams in the weapons platoon, they are about as useful as the company XO team. The player currently has to either tie up a radio-equipped jeep or keep the spotter within sight of the mortars.

[BLSTK]

I understand that one soldier can acquire the weapon of a fallen comrade. Does the same apply to a support officer in possession of a radio? (i.e. can an HQ/support officer w/o a radio acquire one in this manner?)

[akd]

But then, what's the point of the HQ Support Team having its own radio? Right now, with their inability to relay firing instructions to the mortar teams in the weapons platoon, they are about as useful as the company XO team.

If the CO gets whacked and the XO forms a new HQ, the radio will be useful.

I understand that one soldier can acquire the weapon of a fallen comrade. Does the same apply to a support officer in possession of a radio? (i.e. can an HQ/support officer w/o a radio acquire one in this manner?)

Yes, radios can be salvaged through buddy aid, but they can also be damaged and not recoverable I think.

[Vinnart]

I understand that one soldier can acquire the weapon of a fallen comrade. Does the same apply to a support officer in possession of a radio? (i.e. can an HQ/support officer w/o a radio acquire one in this manner?)

Yes they will pick up other equipment too such as radio's. I have a bit of a situation at the moment that deals with this. My Platoon HQ's radio man got hit, and a scout team next to them did the medicing. Now the only way I can get it back in the hands of the Platoon HQ is to get Pvt. Numbnuts killed so the HQ can medic him, and pick up the radio returning it to it's HQ. I hope more improvements in future build deal with better acquiring/sharing as there is no doubt in reality the pvt. would hand over the radio to the HQ.

[Battlefront.com]

Not sure what you guys are talking about. The only HQ Support Team I see in my sifting through the TO&E doesn't have a Radio.

Keep in mind that C2 lines in WW2 were not very flexible. Radios were often not physically capable of receiving signals from other units with radios. There were distinct "nets" and either you had a radio capable of tying into it or you didn't.

CM is already too flexible with this compared to WW2 simply because we didn't want to spend too many precious development resources trying to "perfect" this aspect of the game. Though if there are specific problems that should be addressed, I can definitely take a look into it.

I need to know EXACTLY what Formation you're talking about and EXACTLY what unit can't do what with EXACTLY what other unit.

Steve

[Vinnart]

Not sure what you guys are talking about. The only HQ Support Team I see in my sifting through the TO&E doesn't have a Radio.

Keep in mind that C2 lines in WW2 were not very flexible. Radios were often not physically capable of receiving signals from other units with radios. There were distinct "nets" and either you had a radio capable of tying into it or you didn't.

CM is already too flexible with this compared to WW2 simply because we didn't want to spend too many precious development resources trying to "perfect" this aspect of the game. Though if there are specific problems that should be addressed, I can definitely take a look into it.

I need to know EXACTLY what Formation you're talking about and EXACTLY what unit can't do what with EXACTLY what other unit.

Steve

Steve, I think the way the radios work is good in that it keeps it simple. I think over complicating it would just add frustration over ease of use for smooth game play.

I just happen to have a HQ support unit here with a radio next to mortars in it’s own formation. The mortars show no C2 link, but if I move a jeep with a radio close by they do. It would seem that the HQ support unit should be a viable link for the mortars via it’s radio, but is not. For this reason I use the HQ support as a FO team, keeping either 4th HQ , or a radio vehicle with the mortars.

Here shown is 4th platoon HQ has no link with mortars even though HQ support has radio, is in formation, and is right next to mortars in the same formation.

[BLSTK]

Yes they will pick up other equipment too such as radio's. I have a bit of a situation at the moment that deals with this. My Platoon HQ's radio man got hit, and a scout team next to them did the medicing. Now the only way I can get it back in the hands of the Platoon HQ is to get Pvt. Numbnuts killed so the HQ can medic him, and pick up the radio returning it to it's HQ. I hope more improvements in future build deal with better acquiring/sharing as there is no doubt in reality the pvt. would hand over the radio to the HQ.

Thanks akd and Vinnart.

Sounds like Numbnuts...aka The Privates...is suitably named. Here's hoping he never gets promoted.

[Michael Emrys]

Yes they will pick up other equipment too such as radio's. I have a bit of a situation at the moment that deals with this. My Platoon HQ's radio man got hit, and a scout team next to them did the medicing. Now the only way I can get it back in the hands of the Platoon HQ is to get Pvt. Numbnuts killed so the HQ can medic him, and pick up the radio returning it to it's HQ. I hope more improvements in future build deal with better acquiring/sharing as there is no doubt in reality the pvt. would hand over the radio to the HQ.

"Hey! That's my radio!"

"No it isn't."

"What are you doing with it?"

"I found it."

"Well, give it here!"

"No way!"

"That's my radio!"

"It's my radio!"

"Hand it over!"

"You can't make me!"

Etc.

Michael

[PzKfW]

Anyone who has dealt with trying to accurately model afvs, knows that the intricacies of period radio equipment, and which could communicate with which, are not something to be messed with lightly.!

[cool breeze]

"Hey! That's my radio!"

"No it isn't."

"What are you doing with it?"

"I found it."

"Well, give it here!"

"No way!"

"That's my radio!"

"It's my radio!"

"Hand it over!"

"You can't make me!"

Etc.

Michael

LMFAO! most iv LOLed about something I read online in a while. THANKS!

[Apocal]

Not sure what you guys are talking about. The only HQ Support Team I see in my sifting through the TO&E doesn't have a Radio.

Keep in mind that C2 lines in WW2 were not very flexible. Radios were often not physically capable of receiving signals from other units with radios. There were distinct "nets" and either you had a radio capable of tying into it or you didn't.

CM is already too flexible with this compared to WW2 simply because we didn't want to spend too many precious development resources trying to "perfect" this aspect of the game. Though if there are specific problems that should be addressed, I can definitely take a look into it.

I need to know EXACTLY what Formation you're talking about and EXACTLY what unit can't do what with EXACTLY what other unit.

Steve

->US Army Infantry Battalion, any month.

->Any rifle company.

->4th Platoon, HQ Support Squad has a radio in addition the radio held by 4th Platoon HQ.

Placing the Platoon HQ one action spot away from mortars grants a permanent support link with all capable spotters on the field. Placing an empty radio jeep one action spot away from the mortars grants a permanent support link with all spotters.

But placing the HQ Support Squad, which also has a radio, one action spot away leaves the mortars without this support link and spotters can only call on them if they have an alternate means of communicating.

IRL, both the radios in a weapons platoon were SCR-300s so it should not be an issue of one having the technical capability to talk on a net but the other not.

[LukeFF]

->US Army Infantry Battalion, any month.

->Any rifle company.

->4th Platoon, HQ Support Squad has a radio in addition the radio held by 4th Platoon HQ.

Placing the Platoon HQ one action spot away from mortars grants a permanent support link with all capable spotters on the field. Placing an empty radio jeep one action spot away from the mortars grants a permanent support link with all spotters.

But placing the HQ Support Squad, which also has a radio, one action spot away leaves the mortars without this support link and spotters can only call on them if they have an alternate means of communicating.

IRL, both the radios in a weapons platoon were SCR-300s so it should not be an issue of one having the technical capability to talk on a net but the other not.

Exactly what I was going to write.

[Pak40]

Not sure what you guys are talking about. The only HQ Support Team I see in my sifting through the TO&E doesn't have a Radio.

...

I need to know EXACTLY what Formation you're talking about and EXACTLY what unit can't do what with EXACTLY what other unit.

Steve

OK, just checked out the issues in a custom testing scenario. This was all done in deployment mode in the scenario editor.

U.S. weapons platoon in a regular infantry Company (CMBN) does have HQ Support team with a radio. The Platoon HQ also has a radio. There is a jeep with a radio also but I moved that to the other side of the map so as not to influence the other two radios.

The problems is that the HQ Support team can act as a spotter while the Platoon HQ is near the mortars, but when the roles are reversed, the Platoon HQ cannot call in a mission.

There is an different issue with the German medium on-board mortars also:

I used the normal Grenadiers mortar weapons company. The medium mortar platoon in it has a Platoon HQ (with radio) and a Section HQ (without a radio).

The problem here is that the Company HQ or Batallion HQ cannot call in a mission unless both the Platoon HQ and Section HQ are near the mortars. The Section HQ should not matter since it has no radio.

[$Pec5]

OK, just checked out the issues in a custom testing scenario. This was all done in deployment mode in the scenario editor.

U.S. weapons platoon in a regular infantry Company (CMBN) does have HQ Support team with a radio. The Platoon HQ also has a radio. There is a jeep with a radio also but I moved that to the other side of the map so as not to influence the other two radios.

The problems is that the HQ Support team can act as a spotter while the Platoon HQ is near the mortars, but when the roles are reversed, the Platoon HQ cannot call in a mission.

There is an different issue with the German medium on-board mortars also:

I used the normal Grenadiers mortar weapons company. The medium mortar platoon in it has a Platoon HQ (with radio) and a Section HQ (without a radio).

The problem here is that the Company HQ or Batallion HQ cannot call in a mission unless both the Platoon HQ and Section HQ are near the mortars. The Section HQ should not matter since it has no radio.

Just ran into the same issue with the German on-board mortars

[Bartokomus]

I am so glad someone brought this up; i first noticed this in the bridge of doom scenario of Courage and Fortitude Campaign. I thought it was me...

[akd]

Has been discussed many times. You need to preserve the chain of command for your mortars if you want them to be accessible to anyone on the map. Or you can park a radio-equipped vehicle next to them, a rule which was added specifically to allow for doctrinal use of mortar carriers, if I recall.

Don't send the mortar section and platoon HQs away from their mortars. Don't separate mortars from their dedicated carrier HTs. If you follow those simple rules, you will generally find them reliably "in contact" no matter who you are using as a spotter.

[Pak40]

AKD,

Yes, I see the chain of command now for the Section HQ, but there's some logic that's missing. Just because the section HQ is not in C2 shouldn't mean that the radios suddenly don't work between the Platoon HQ and the Company HQ(spotter). I fully understand the CMBN needs the full C2 chain but in reality it doesn't work like that. The mortar team is not going to refuse an order from his CO just because the Section HQ is off in the woods taking a $hit. There's some real world logic that's missing here that really should be addressed.

[akd]

AKD,

Yes, I see the chain of command now for the Section HQ, but there's some logic that's missing. Just because the section HQ is not in C2 shouldn't mean that the radios suddenly don't work between the Platoon HQ and the Company HQ(spotter). I fully understand the CMBN needs the full C2 chain but in reality it doesn't work like that. The mortar team is not going to refuse an order from his CO just because the Section HQ is off in the woods taking a $hit. There's some real world logic that's missing here that really should be addressed.

The section HQs almost certainly played a role in processing a request for fire, particularly for more complex missions like those under the control of a remote spotter, so I do think there is a valid reason to require the section HQ to stay with the mortars. But if the chain is broken, any spotter (including the higher up CO) can request fire from the mortar team directly from within voice range.

[Sgt Schultz]

I attempt to use my HQ/XO(teamhq) chain to stretch things out to avoid counter-battery. As long as the mortars are voice/close to the XO, and the XO is voice/close to the HQ... then all is fine with the world of German on-map assets. A Hannomag is just icing.

Example-

The HQ peeks over the hill and yells down to the XO, who yells further down to the mortars at the treeline... which may not even see each other but are in C2 of the XO.

I understand that it is a seemingly illogical restriction to lose a capability from the loss of a lowly XO, but war is hell and as Steve pointed out, we are already getting all kinds of communication breaks.

The US/radio thing is a head-scratcher, but not my table. Allies are targets. gotta have my Panzergrenadiers. I will take it into account during future design projects though, so thanks all for the heads up.