Where is the best place to find weapon ranges?

[JonS]

C'mon Deez - use your noggin. This really isn't as hard or as esoteric as you're feebly trying to make it.

1) suppression (includes multiple sub-cases, cas generally not necessary to achieve aim)

2) distraction (includes multiple sub-cases, cas generally not necessary to achieve aim)

3) dense target

4) fleeting target

5) high value target

6) various combinations of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5

[Paulverisor64]

Right here:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=107081

Thank you for this link.

This will be my very 1st mod I've tried.

Unfortunately I haven't figured out what I have to do to get it to work.

I've placed the unzipped contents of what I'd like to use in the C:\Program Files (x86)\Battlefront\Combat Mission Fortress Italy\Mod Tools area.

I don't see what activates this, and when I get into a game I don't see the changes applied.

What's the trick to get this to activate?

[JonS]

uh oh. First mod eh? I suggest you put the crack pipe down now, and step away. No one needs to get hurt, and you'll get your life back.

[simast]

I've placed the unzipped contents of what I'd like to use in the C:\Program Files (x86)\Battlefront\Combat Mission Fortress Italy\Mod Tools area.

Wrong place Paul

Since CMFI, you should put your mods in:

C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\Battlefront\Combat Mission\Fortress Italy\User Data\Mods\

(Where USERNAME is your OS username)

[Killkess]

I actually don't mind too much if SMGs open up at longer ranges when the team is given a Target order by the player -- to me, this signifies a situation where a team is ordered to go "all out" against that particular target (or area), using any and all weapons that might have an effect, even if said effect is marginal.

The main reason for giving target orders, at least for me, is that A) when a unit sees multiple targets i want to target priority/important targets.. the AI dont do a realy good job at this regardless of range even rifles and stuff will use more firepower if u give a target order so if u dont, u are wasting available firepower.

Both ends in the situation that the SMGs waste their ammo at ranges well out of their effective envelop. It´s kinda funny that we had a discussion (a couple of weeks ago) about if HMGs should or should not be effective beyond 300-400m, now we have a discussion where people say shooting a SMG at 250?

[JasonC]

YankeeDog - the real issue is that the automatics can burn their ammo very rapidly whenever they do fire, and if they fire at long range and into cover, they run out without doing anything. There wouldn't really be any effect from a few single shots squeezed off at such ranges and targets anyway - even hosing the whole ammo load away does little, after all - so the big thing is just to stop them from firing beyond effective range.

I think the max range for a PPsH is about 125 yards, for a 9mm about 100 yards, and for a Thompson / 45 ACP more like 75 yards. Against typical targets. Against good cover you'd want to cut even those ranges by another 25 yards. Firing pistol ammo at 200+ is just crazy.

The SMGs need to be holding their fire even when the rifles are firing. They should add their fire once the range drops into their envelope, and this would serve to make close ranges significantly more dangerous to enemy approach. And with the right fire behavior, the SMGs would not run dry doing this - they'd be there for "final protective fire" with mags at the ready, when actually needed.

My other pet peeve on this score is the tendency of the spotters in sniper teams to open up with their side arm. This is practically always the wrong thing. The whole point of a sniper team is the stealth of the rifle, and giving the position away by opening with the MP40 at 150 yards is suicidal and throws away this advantage. When the enemy is close enough to spot the rifle when it fires, the team should be going quiet to hide, not opening with the MP. Only if the enemy would spot a non-firing team by walking over them, should the MP open up to protect them. If the range is inside the envelope above and the team is already spotted and under fire, then the SMG can fire back. Otherwise, it should stay down until the enemy is at point blank.

What counts as point blank? Depends on the cover the sniper team is in, and the resulting likely spotting distance for the enemy. Basically you want to open with the MP only when the enemy is 5-10 meters away from seeing you even motionless and hiding, which may be 25 yards range in good cover, might be twice that in medium cover.

The reason the game gets this stuff wrong ATM would appear to be just having unit as a whole either firing all weapons or firing none. Sniper teams that put a short range weapon and a long range stealthy one together just "stress" that code decision more than anything else.

[YankeeDog]

@JasonC:

Good points. We can discuss exactly what range SMGs should open up until we're blue in the face, but I think we all agree it should be much closer than it is now.

The sniper team issue is definitely a related and very annoying issue. Some types of teams in the game clearly need special behavior coding wrt default small arms usage that's currently not in the game. Sniper teams is definitely the top of the list, but there are other types of teams that display similar behavior.

For example, if you order a U.S. 60mm teams to area fire in direct lay mode at less than 300m, the ammo bearers will usually open up with their carbines on the area target, and even the team leader will open up with his Thompson as the range drops below 250m. This is usually not desirable as the mortar team is much more likely to be spotted and take incoming fire if the ammo bearers are firing their small arms; you usually want just the mortar itself to fire. IMHO, mortar team small arms should be similarly "self defense only", at least until the mortar team either runs dry of mortar ammo, or abandons the mortar.

[dieseltaylor]

Just yet another anecdote on SMG

Tests conducted by the U.S. military during WWII using a captured Mp40 revealed that a 9mm round would enter a standard G.I. helmet and liner and almost go out the other side, whereas the same test conducted with a Thompson showed that the bullet made a large dent in the helmet, but did not penetrate.

Couple this with an incident occurring during WWII, as related in Frank Iannamico's book, "Blitzkrieg - The MP40 Maschinenpistole of WWII", whereby three G.I.'s found themselves in a ditch which turned out to be a makeshift German latrine. Two of the G.I.'s were armed with Thompson's and opened fire on a group of Germans approx. 50 yards away - other than scattering the group, no other effects were noticed. However, a lone German armed with an Mp40 was able to direct accurate and sustained fire on the group, pinning them down, until the one G.I. armed with an M1 Garand took him out with a headshot.

Within this same book the sad tale of Major General Maurice Rose's death in 1945 is also recounted - he was mistakenly killed by a young German tank commander when the latter believed that the General was trying to resist by reaching for his sidearm. The German quickly let off a snap burst and two rounds immediately penetrated General Rose's helmet, killing him instantly.

So the Thompson may have the higher-quality finish and machine work, as well the better designed double-stack, double-feed magazines, but for accuracy & penetration the Mp40 wins.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_do_you_think_is_the_best_submachine_gun_the_MP40_or_the_M1A1_Thompson

Now obviously a book is not proof. There is a nice US army film showing the accuracy of US and German SMG's at 75yards where trained infantrymen conclusively show that by adopting the upright braced posture with SMG to shoulder that you can get 85% accuracy. Admittedly the targets appeared to be Siamese twins joined hip and thigh who stayed upright whilst under fire.

This did help the slower firing SMG's rack up better accuracy scores but my gut feeling is that troops under fire hit the dirt pretty darn quick and pinpoint accuracy is actually not the point. Rapidity of fire whilst enemy in range and standing was more use.

[dieseltaylor]

C'mon Deez - use your noggin. This really isn't as hard or as esoteric as you're feebly trying to make it.

1) suppression (includes multiple sub-cases, cas generally not necessary to achieve aim)

2) distraction (includes multiple sub-cases, cas generally not necessary to achieve aim)

3) dense target

4) fleeting target

5) high value target

6) various combinations of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5

When I first read your reply I immediately thought this sounds remarkably like an answer for fighting post WW2 "small" wars were the good guys have no worries on ammo supply or conventional warfare responses.

The answer gives vague possibilities that might apply. I think the complaint is that the AI does not even seem to have this list to check off against and opens fire simply because enemy comes within a maximum range.

A fleeting target at number 4 seems a bit suspect if the target is at an excessive range. A Sten at 10 yards and seeing something for 5 seconds travelling at 6mph would be able to fire 16shots and get 1.86 hits on average. Now that is getting on I believe for 10% of the normal Sten ammo load.

Doing the maths would show that there is enough ammo for 80 seconds of firing in anger and then the platoon would be bereft of its close quarter tool.

With time more anecdotes of use and non-use will surface but be irrelevant to the game. I will lookout for them!

[JonS]

Jebus H Jones in a chicken basket. Way to strip all context from the "conversation"

I said:

... this issue is heavily context dependant. It's not hard to come up with cases where an SMG should be used at 250m, and it's just as easy to come up with cases where they should not be used at 25m. Coding a robust and flexible TacAI that suits all circumstances is possible, I suppose, but I doubt it'd be easy or only take a few minutes. Given that this has already been addressed once, I doubt it'll get a very high priority to be looked at again.

You said:

exampleS please.

I said:

exampleS

Now you say:

The answer gives vague possibilities that might apply, so I'm going to pretend your first post doesn't exist, and that programming a robust and flexible TacAI that suits all circumstances is a trivial task

So, basically, you agree that they are valid exampleS (you really should get your shift key checked out), but ignore the context in which the exampleS were given.

Good luck with that approach.

[Paulverisor64]

Wrong place Paul

Since CMFI, you should put your mods in:

C:\Users\USERNAME\Documents\Battlefront\Combat Mission\Fortress Italy\User Data\Mods\

(Where USERNAME is your OS username)

Thank you Simas,

I didn't have that path unfortunately. I've finally discovered that I need to create a "z" folder under "Data" Once I did that I see this as quite simple. I appreciate the hard work that this represents. Unfortunately this is hard to read. Still crossing my fingers that the data screen will be increased in a future mod or upgrade.

By the way;

I am enjoying the discussion in this thread.

None of my SMG'ers have survived long enough to use up their ammo but that is a good point in regards to these troops opening up at greater than optimal range.

My way around this so far is to split up my teams and give the SMG'ers a tighter cover arc.

[JonS]

None of my SMG'ers have survived long enough to use up their ammo but that is a good point in regards to these troops opening up at greater than optimal range.

Yeah, I find it's pretty rare too. Mind, though, in a recent PBEM I had an HQ (with 2 x Sten) on the second floor of a bldg, sort-of overwatching some of my guys entering a paddock just below and beside the bldg. Partway through the turn an enemy squad showed itself by opening up on my guys sneaking in. The enemy were about 40, maybe 50m away from the HQ, who went absolutely BANANAS. They burnt through all their ammo in about 2 turns, and didn't hit a damn thing But, their fire did distract the enemy enough that I was able to overwhelm them with only a few cas to the sneakers.

I had a bren carrier downstairs on the lee side of the bldg, so after the dust had settled I sent the HQ down to bomb up, then back upstairs for more overwatch. It was a pretty handy position, actually. They spent most of the rest of the battle taking pot shots at some German infantry trying infiltrate along a hedge line, about 150-200m away, mainly using their rifles with the odd bust of Sten fire interspersed.

[John Kettler]

dieseltaylor,

May I suggest watching the vid at the link? It's an official War Department 1943 training film "Infantry Weapons." At the time it was made, the film was classified Restricted. You will see clear examples of the penetrative power of U.S. pistols, rifles and MGs. Believe you'll find it well worth your time.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=106717

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

YankeeDog,

The blazing away to ammo exhaustion can and did apply to entire units, as seen here in an excerpt from an old post of mine in the CMx1 Archives. I don't have the actual reference on hand, though. Wish I could remember where I read it.

"While we're on fire discipline/lack thereof and its impact on ammo consumption, I thought I'd mention what happened to the Grossdeutschland Division during the first day of Barbarossa. Seems the division got a little carried away (all right, a lot) and shot off its ENTIRE ammo allotment, then screamed for more. Alas, this cry for help fell on deaf corps commander ears (believe it was Von Kleist), who decreed that the trigger happy unit spend its first night in Russia sans ammo. What fun! Thereafter, fire discipline was a hallmark of Grossdeutschland (which also had larcenous tendencies regarding SS Tiger tanks)."

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Womble - As for the incidence of wooden framed buildings in Normandy I do think MikeyD was talking CMFI though and he makes no distinction as to building material.

Regardless, the .50 does rip through buildings from across the map in both instances. Some buildings. Because some buildings are made of little more than matchsticks and sheetrock. And that's realistic.

...which part of Normandy...

This last trip we stayed in Honfleur across the Seine from Le Harvre, but went as far west as Bayeux and as far south as Falaise.

I have stayed in a few older French properties and one cottage I particularly recall near Le Mans had a main beam in the kitchen was 2'X2' by about 5 metres , and window embrasures of at least 18', massive stone lintels over door , window and fireplace.

I'm not for a moment saying such buildings didn't and don't exist. That would be ridiculous. My observation is that to characterise all buildings as blockhouses just becuse some are would be just as fallacious, and your data provided doesn't support your assertion that the .50cal is overmodelled.

As for tar paper shingles are you sure they are not cut and trimmed slate?

I know the difference between slate and roofing felt.

Slate being lightish...

Not in the size that I saw cladding the outside of many buildings, it's not.

Wooden shingles have a lifespan of around 100 years or less...

A few of the buildings so constructed were, indeed, in a state of very poor repair with many missing shingles. But no partials that I noticed, which you'd expect with slate.

...slate makes an excellent rain barrier replacement.

Only if the structure and fixing arrangements will support the considerably greater weight. And slate is barely better than wood for stopping .30-06 and equivalent or more powerful rounds.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98368&highlight=bricks

which is a thread with some figures. Unfortunately the 0.5" is not mentioned but the figures are at 100m which I regards as quite close. MikeyD was suggesting firing across a map ....

[womble]

...first night in Russia sans ammo...

That is a lesson that would be difficult to forget...

[dieseltaylor]

JonS

I see that it is complicated so I will strip the points to a bare minimum:

1. You give examples of were firing SMG's at 250m might be a good reason. I say that the AI does not seem to operate any checklist or evaluation and just tends open fire at long range on any target.

2. I say that in WW2 troops did not waste ammo unless there were exceptional circumstances - anotherwords the firing of SMG's at long range would be very rare and not common.

3. SMG's were inaccurate at range and the troops who used them would be loath to waste ammo.

As for the thread that is about RL and CMX2 ranges and what are effective ranges. SMG's firing out to 250m is or should be very very rare.

There are loads of posters on the forums who all agree that the SMG is badly used within the game by the AI. The Kar98 was sighted to 2000metres but imagine the outcry if the German infantry opened up at that range.

[dieseltaylor]

Womble

I agree absolutely that not all houses are built the same and in Normandy there would be a variety of materials and strengths. However there is certainly no correlation between small buildings being easily penetratable and larger ones tougher! On my next trip I will pay particular attention with those tile hung houses! : )

The primary point was my arguing that in Sicily a 0.5" fring across a valley should not be riddling buildings which would be stone built. The RCMP research does seem to suggest that riddling a solid stone built structure at range is fanciful.

If you are arguing that in Sicily they have a similar building mix to Normandy I would disagree strongly as wood is not overly common whereas stone is plentiful. The stone may not be as massive as granite but then what we have from the US Army is always figures for 100metres without distinction as to whether it is head-on [which I am sure it is] or even what "stone" is.

If an ATR can be protected against at 100 metres by 18" of stone, or a 7.92mm MG with 12" of stone then one might think that something firing at much greater ranges and very probably not square to target would not be riddling every building as suggested by MikeyD[?]. I am not suggesting that any building could not eventually be pulverised by a 0.5" fring at it for hours its just the impression from the comment given was that Italian buildings were easy meat.

In a land prone to earthquakes overbuilding would seem to be the native choice. Whilst browing here is something for sale and also an idea of a wall thickness:

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/overseas-property/property-38276312.html

[JonS]

Deez,

I see this is simple, so I'll try and use small words for you

I say that the AI does not seem to operate any checklist or evaluation

I didn't say there was a checklist (I don't know if there is or not). I said any checklist would be depend heavily on context and gave examples of situations when players might expect their SMGs to open fire at long range, and would complain bitterly if they didn't.

[Baneman]

I'm less sure - I'm far more likely to complain when/if my SMG-equipped guy wastes his ammo at 150m-250m range targets than if he didn't.

Thing is, the guy with the SMG is rarely alone, so his Kar/Enfield/Garand equipped mates can do that heavy lifting.

If there was an iron-clad "SMG's WILL NOT FIRE PAST 100m" rule it would lead to less annoyance/complaints than the current situation.

[Michael Emrys]

...Grossdeutschland Division during the first day of Barbarossa.

Was GD a division on that date? Somehow I had it in mind that it was still a regiment and was not raised to division strength until ten months later. Wiki has this to say on the matter:

On the last day of February 1942, Rifle Battalion GD (all that was left of the original Regiment) was disbanded and two battalions formed a new GD Regiment out of reinforcements arriving from Neuruppin. The Regiment moved to Orel after a period in the front line, and on 1 Apr 1942, arising out of the need for new motorized formations for the summer offensives of 1942, an announcement was made at a regimental parade at Rjetschiza:

"Effective immediately the former Infantry Regiment Großdeutschland is expanded to the Infantry Division Großdeutschland."

Michael

[Michael Emrys]

2. I say that in WW2 troops did not waste ammo unless there were exceptional circumstances - anotherwords the firing of SMG's at long range would be very rare and not common.

That to me seems to assume a lot. I would think that troops might hold their fire if they were battle-wise and well disciplined, but if anxious and inexperienced would tend to spray fire in the direction of any identified or even suspected enemy.

3. SMG's were inaccurate at range and the troops who used them would be loath to waste ammo.

Then again, they might not see it as a waste. If they were just interested in encouraging the enemy to keep their heads down while performing some kind of maneuver, for instance. While this might not be an everyday occurrence, and therefore needing reevaluation in the game, I think "loath" might be a little strong here.

SMG's firing out to 250m is or should be very very rare.

Delete the phrase "very very" and you'd be a lot closer to the mark.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

I'm less sure - I'm far more likely to complain when/if my SMG-equipped guy wastes his ammo at 150m-250m range targets than if he didn't.

Thing is, the guy with the SMG is rarely alone, so his Kar/Enfield/Garand equipped mates can do that heavy lifting.

If there was an iron-clad "SMG's WILL NOT FIRE PAST 100m" rule it would lead to less annoyance/complaints than the current situation.

This is how I see it. I would be in favor of a hard cap at 100m if programming a context sensitive AI routine is too hard.

[hobo]

For example, if you order a U.S. 60mm teams to area fire in direct lay mode at less than 300m, the ammo bearers will usually open up with their carbines on the area target, and even the team leader will open up with his Thompson as the range drops below 250m. This is usually not desirable as the mortar team is much more likely to be spotted and take incoming fire if the ammo bearers are firing their small arms; you usually want just the mortar itself to fire. IMHO, mortar team small arms should be similarly "self defense only", at least until the mortar team either runs dry of mortar ammo, or abandons the mortar.

This is highly annoying and really should be fixed. In one game I was very proud of sneaking a mortar to a highly covered tree line with direct sight on an enemy position only to get off 1 shot before all hell broke out from enemy field guns because they were alerted to my mortar by it crew small arms fire.

[LukeFF]

If the current SMG-firing behavior is carried over to the east front titles, then PPSh-41s will be greatly ineffective, given the gun's very high rate-of-fire.