Skill Level Iron Distinction?

[Kuderian]

But in your Elite example, the mortar, Mg and squad are highlighted, indicating ( I thought ) that you can see all three, but in the Iron pic, you can only see the squad ?

No, in Elite mode a single click highlights the rest of the formation which in this case is the MG etc. . To check LOS between units you have manually use the LOS tool. That is my point really, only in Iron mode can you instantly see what only the selected unit sees.

Two further shots in Elite mode

[Baneman]

My bad, it's enemies that light up when you can see them. of course.

[sburke]

Iron mode is the only mode where you can look through the eyes of a unit and see only what that units see, both friendly units and enemy. I find this very helpful for finding good LOS between units and setup formation etc.

I just tried iron mode for the 1st time and found this as well. It takes some getting used to the difference, but I found this really helpful at understanding a units isolation and potential issues for C2 etc. Gives an interesting change of perspective. I don't know that I would recommend it for an RTS player, but as a WeGo player I appreciate the very graphic view of the units overall awareness.

[Vanir Ausf B]

In Warrior mode if I need to see if a sub unit has LOS to an HQ I just look for the visual C2 icon.

[Peregrine]

IIRC it was me that checked, and no it isn't true

I am not sure if I misread this but Iron mode is completely different to the other modes with regard to friendly spotting and staying in C2.

Iron Mode - a unit must spot friendlies using the same (or extremely similar) mechanics that are used to spot enemies. Once spotted C2 does not establish straight away. Note that friendlies can have LOS to each other but still not spot each other making C2 much harder.

Elite Mode - units that are within LOS are automatically spotted and C2 is almost immediately established if within the appropriate visual range.

Units working closely together (<50m) stay in C2 in Iron Mode OK for the most part because of voice contact but outside of this range CLEAR LOS is critical.

A quick test to show the dramatic difference is to have a platoon leader and its SQD both behind hedgerows hiding from each other about 90m apart.

IRON MODE - C2 is broken as they won't see each other. 5 minutes of hiding still results in neither unit seeing the other. After unhiding the SQD they still do not spot their hiding leader. This continues for another 5 minutes. After unhiding both of them they spot each other within 15s at the outside. But even though this spotting occurs reasonably quickly you do not get a green C2 for another 40-50 seconds. There may be some sort of memory because if you "fast" the SQD away of out LOS and run them back in again they spot quickly (<5s) and establish C2 quickly (another 5s). If you repeat this several times they seem to always spot and establish C2 within 10 seconds of LOS existing. But if you run the SQD away and pass 5 minutes before running them back then my quick test shows it takes 40-50 seconds to establish C2 after the units have spotted each other.

ELITE MODE - Spotting is immediate and they are in C2 within a second. If you move one of the units back out of LOS C2 is broken. Keeping both units "hiding" if you "slow" the unit back into LOS it is still immediately spotted and C2 is established with <1 second delay.

In a clear open battlefield this isn't a great difference between Iron Mode and Elite but a spread out platoon under Iron Mode (>50m) in any sort of terrain will constantly be dropping out of C2 because of spotting problems. Hiding units makes C2 under Iron even trickier again.

[Broadsword56]

Originally, I thought Iron was going to be like the highest difficulty in the Take Command Civil War game where as a regiment/brigade/division commander, you are stuck down at ground level only...no God-in-the-sky view. But that isn't the case.

I'd like that too, IF the Tac AI in this game were at a much higher level, with SOPs and the ability to give units general orders and let them find the best ways to execute them.

But that's not CM x 2, and in this game we have to become every leader of every unit on the battlefield in order to make them operate intelligently. Given that, I figure it's OK to see them all and know more than the commander would know, because I'm not only the commander but the squad leader, platoon leader, etc.

[LJFHutch]

Hmm, so there are realism differences between them, looks like I'll continue playing Iron then

See, this is the sort of thing that needs to be made a lot clearer.

[Peregrine]

Hmm, so there are realism differences between them, looks like I'll continue playing Iron then

See, this is the sort of thing that needs to be made a lot clearer.

The manual says this about Iron.

"- Friendly units need to be spotted just like enemy units. If you have

a friendly unit not in line of sight or in contact with another friendly

unit, then the only way to find this unit is by either re-establishing

contact with another friendly unit or by clicking through the chain of

command in the game interface, jumping from unit to unit."

Everything after the first sentence is just an slightly confusing way of saying the UI is more clunky and not really explaining how spotting, not LOS, effects C2. It also seems to say you can't see unspotted friendly units if a unit is selected. This isn't true all the time as all friendly units are visible in the orders phase of WEGO.

This description is a bit of a hangover from how it originally working in CMSF before it was modified to the state that it exists in today.

[Peregrine]

I'd like that too, IF the Tac AI in this game were at a much higher level, with SOPs and the ability to give units general orders and let them find the best ways to execute them.

But that's not CM x 2, and in this game we have to become every leader of every unit on the battlefield in order to make them operate intelligently. Given that, I figure it's OK to see them all and know more than the commander would know, because I'm not only the commander but the squad leader, platoon leader, etc.

You can apply some self imposed realism rules to limit your presience.

Basically when you start every battle each platoon gets a basic mini-mission (ie clear that field, advance to the hedgerow). You need to remember this in your head or jot it down. They don't get to deviate from this unless they take casualties or they spot threats that would alter their behaviour. Once a unit completes it's minimission it can't undertake new offensive activites unless they are in command back to the company commander.

Area fire/artillery can only be targeted at contacts or visible units. If you feel the need to use area fire at targets the units can't see then no cherry picking the action square or time. You need to blast the whole area and not just shoot at an action square until an unspotted threat disappears.

If you play like this units that are in command and tight perform better because contacts get shared much faster up and down the chain. It also introduces risks if you send lone units of on long solo missions. On Iron mode with infantry you will find Plt Ldr running around to get SQDs moving by reestablishing C2 alot if you spread out your SQDs. If you don't spread out your SQDs you are much more vulnerable to arty.

[JonS]

Area fire/artillery can only be targeted at contacts or visible units. If you feel the need to use area fire at targets the units can't see then no cherry picking the action square or time. You need to blast the whole area and not just shoot at an action square until an unspotted threat disappears.

One way to handle this would be to make a determination that all these 'impromptu' missions must be fired as area target with a 70m radius, medium-medium. Or something like that, with some allowance for calibre (larger calibre = larger area) and number of weapons in the fire unit.

[sburke]

You can apply some self imposed realism rules to limit your presience.

Basically when you start every battle each platoon gets a basic mini-mission (ie clear that field, advance to the hedgerow). You need to remember this in your head or jot it down. They don't get to deviate from this unless they take casualties or they spot threats that would alter their behaviour. Once a unit completes it's minimission it can't undertake new offensive activites unless they are in command back to the company commander.

This is essentially what the Gamers did in the TCS series of games. You had to draw up Op plans. The suggestion was even to demarc unit boundaries and they gave typical front coverage for platoons/companies to give you guidance. To alter your op plan you had several factors involved. Had the unit been fired upon, is it BN size (the assumption being they'd have larger staffs to assist with planning) how much time had elapsed since development of the op plan etc. You then rolled a die to see if you could actually implement the plan. Until you were succesful you had to adhere to the plan.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I have to hand it to you Peregrine, 14 months after release and you are the first person to ever demonstrate a specific difference between Iron and the other difficulty levels not related to UI. The previous test I ran in relation to this was regarding a different claim regarding Iron that turned out not to be true, at least in the particular circumstance I tested which IIRC was open terrain. This is important since it appears the C2 differences at Iron can be very circumstantial. For example, after verifying your test results I changed the low bocage I was using to a low stone wall. After unhiding the units they spotted the HQ quickly, withing about 5 seconds and had C2 withing another 3 seconds after that.

So it looks like I'll be making the switch to Iron. But I have to agree with the previous comment that BFC should have been more forthcoming about this.

[LJFHutch]

In the CM 2.0 announcement they said something about being able to group units together with hotkeys for quick selection and then went on to say that you could only group HQs in Iron mode, I fail to see the reasoning behind this, it doesn't make it more realistic or authentic (even if it was an attempt at making the player feel more like they're only the commander) and in my eyes is a deliberately lost opportunity to enhance the control that is already there by reducing micro management.

[Peregrine]

I have to hand it to you Peregrine, 14 months after release and you are the first person to ever demonstrate a specific difference between Iron and the other difficulty levels not related to UI. The previous test I ran in relation to this was regarding a different claim regarding Iron that turned out not to be true, at least in the particular circumstance I tested which IIRC was open terrain. This is important since it appears the C2 differences at Iron can be very circumstantial. For example, after verifying your test results I changed the low bocage I was using to a low stone wall. After unhiding the units they spotted the HQ quickly, withing about 5 seconds and had C2 withing another 3 seconds after that.

So it looks like I'll be making the switch to Iron. But I have to agree with the previous comment that BFC should have been more forthcoming about this.

For me the Elite C2 is OK realism wise if you play with some sort of self imposed restrictions when playing the AI.

I used to play Iron but after coming up with some basic rules to make the game feel more real the spotting of Iron was a bit of a headache. In a nutshell a SQD won't do anything aggresive unless told to by an in command HQ. This forces you when you play to tighten up your platoons a little and slows your attacks down. But doing this at Iron level in WEGO mode there was too much HQ running around to yell at ppl for my liking and I found that playing like that works better at Elite.

The way the game is now C2 effects morale only and not the directing of a battle. The borg still exists but if you play with some sort of realism rules on Elite CMx2 feels pretty real without the unpredictabillity of Iron C2.

PS Other subtlies pop up as well under Iron and there may be some bugs or unusual happenings as my test showed to me. As you need to spot facing becomes more important under Iron.

Two hedgrerows facing each other 90m apart. HQ and Plt facing each other in Iron mode, not hidden spot each other comfortably and are in C2, close visual. Now if you pivot the Sqd 90 degrees so they face parallel to the hedgerow most of the unit will go prone, C2 will be lost EVEN though the UI still reports that the two units can see each other.

So if you play with realism rules where it is important whether a unit is in C2 or not before getting orders Iron is actually a real headache. It can be tricky to tell if a unit is about to come it to contact, they can see each other but are too far apart for visual contact or another problem as illustrated above is the issue.

[c3k]

I _think_ Iron was introduced due to the popularity of some self-imposed PBEM restrictions. Keeping your view at the lowest level and only cycling +/- through your units is a pretty tough "iron man" approach to playing. You can tilt and pan the camera from the unit's position, but you are not allowed to move the camera position.

Using this approach, you may inflict more friendly casualties, your timing will be off, coordination between out of LOS/out of command units will really be off, and you will have little idea of what's going on beyond your immediate bocage, bush, room, or wall.

Iron supports that mode of play. It takes some voluntary actions on the player's part.

Using free camera with Iron is about the same as Elite. It does, however, show how your units may suffer a lower morale (global morale?) due to a sense of isolation. (If your squad doesn't know that friendlies are all around them, their morale _should_ be more fragile. Iron mode shows that sense of isolation. Elite, etc., do not.)

Ken

[Kuderian]

In Warrior mode if I need to see if a sub unit has LOS to an HQ I just look for the visual C2 icon.

Yes, but you will not know about friendly non-sub units.

Afaik Iron was exactly the same in CM:SF

Two shots

[poesel]

I _think_ Iron was introduced due to the popularity of some self-imposed PBEM restrictions. Keeping your view at the lowest level and only cycling +/- through your units is a pretty tough "iron man" approach to playing. You can tilt and pan the camera from the unit's position, but you are not allowed to move the camera position.

That may sound a bit masochist but I would like to have such a mode. Probably not very useful for large battles. But it would give the game a completely new angle. (pun intended)

[Pete Wenman]

poesel71 here is the full "original" iron aka Franko's rules from CM1

FRANKO'S TRUE COMBAT RULES

SELECTING UNITS

Use "+" or "-" keys to move from friendly unit to friendly unit. Then, use the "tab" key. You can then only rotate in place to scan the surrounding terrain.

If there is friendly unit within the line of sight (LOS) of the unit you have currently selected, you do not have to use the + and - keys. Instead, you can simply point and click on that target unit, THEN hit the tab key. Any other way of accessing an enemy unit is forbidden.

PANNING

After accessing the unit and hitting the tab key(which orients the view of the unit forward), you can only "look around" by using the pivot keys (1,3,7,9) on the keypad.

BUILDINGS

If a unit icon (such as vehicle), blocks your view, you can use the "8" key to click ahead only such distance which is necessary to clear the sprite.

ELEVATED VIEWS

Once turns begin (after setup), you may use only the lowest-level view ("1" on the keyboard), unless the following apply:

A. If your unit occupies are a two-level building, you may use View 2

B. If you are on the top floor of a church, you can use View 2 or View 3, whichever you prefer.

ENEMY UNITS

You may not "click on" or "select" an enemy unit. Use the "N" key to select targets.

ZOOM KEYS

You may not use the "zoom key" (the brackets), unless:

A. You may use up to Zoom 2x if you're unit you are "looking from" is platoon leader or above.

B. Your unit may use up to Zoom 4x if it has optics (e.g, an artillery observer, an AT gun, a tank). Buttoned tanks or tanks that suffered casualties can only use up to zoom 4x in the direction of their turret facing, because, that's where the gunners optics are facing! American tanks may not be able to zoom at all.

WEATHER

You must always have weather and fog set to "Extreme".

SPECIAL SETUP RULES

The following setup rules apply depending on whether you are the attacker, defender, or if the battle is a meeting engagement.

Attacker: During setup you may use View Level 7 to aid in setup, in addition to the views you are permitted in Rules 1, 2, or 3, above. This "attacker's map" rule represents the "map" your troop commander would use to help prepare your troops for the assault.

Defender: During setup you can use the map rule, above, if your signal corps has its act together. In addition, you can freely move about the map in level 1, or view level 2 (or 3, if a church) if that part of the map your viewing from is a multi-level building

Meeting Engagements: Both sides may only view using the Attacker's map rule, or from any spot in their setup zone (only). Again, if a spot in their setup zone has a church or building, adjust accordingly.

OPTIONAL RULE

During setup you may print out a map (by taking a screen shot and printing the .bmp file) for use during the battle. This map should be at the minimum View Level 7.

GAME SETTINGS

Use only "Realistic" Sized units. Always have "full terrain" on. Turn unit bases and detailed armored hits "off". Generally speaking, use only those feature that the troops could use. Needless to say, Fog of War is ALWAYS set to FULL!

[Vanir Ausf B]

Yes, but you will not know about friendly non-sub units.

True, but I've never felt the need to know if friendly units outside the C2 chain to one another have LOS to each other.

Afaik Iron was exactly the same in CM:SF

Peregrine suggested that the differences he highlighted are new for CMBN

[Peregrine]

True, but I've never felt the need to know if friendly units outside the C2 chain to one another have LOS to each other.

Peregrine suggested that the differences he highlighted are new for CMBN

Didn't mean that. This was awhile ago and my memory may be a little off or even incorrect.

CM:SF originally had a top difficulty level that was similar to the current Iron mode but I believe that even in the order phase you couldn't see friendlies at all. Vast majority didn't like it but still wanted to use the hardest mode. My memory is straining here but the problem was that an equivalent CMBN "Elite" mode didn't exist with the initial CMSF. I think originally CMSF had the "hardest" difficulty lvl with it's slightly awkward friendly spotting and the next level down had no friendly spotting requirements but ALSO had watered down other things (not sure what but probably stuff like arty wait times, C2 sharing etc).

Somewhere in it's patching cycle the CM:SF difficulty levels were modified to what now exists in CMBN. Basically an "Elite" level was inserted that had max realism without the friendly spotting requirements.

EDIT - Warrior doesn't exist in Marines in CMSF.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Oh, I see. Thanks

[poesel]

poesel71 here is the full "original" iron aka Franko's rules from CM1

Oh I would love to have that in the game! Ok, I could impose that on myself in a game versus the AI. But would you trust your opponent to adhere to these rules? At least I wouldn't trust me!

Please BFC - make this an additional mode! 'Iron' is such a weak metal anyway.

Steve, you are so much against overwhelming us with information - now I want you to take it away from us. That MUST be in your likening!

[LJFHutch]

I don't like all those extra restrictions at all (prefer the all hats approach, especially since it is necessary given the AI restrictions), but I certainly want the most realistic experience I can get.

[Holman]

Quick question:

If I play in Iron mode, is the enemy AI also suffering those same limitations to C2 compared to Elite or Warrior?