birdstrike Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 I know there weren't any M10 tank destroyers deployed during the Sicily campaign - but since the model is already in CMBN, maybe it would be possible to add M10s to CMFI anyway? As little bonus vehicle for use in QBs and the scenario editor? Pretty please? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Me, I wanted the CMBN Commonwealth M3A1 Stuart to show up in a coat of US olive drab paint. But if it wasn't in Sicily it wasn't in Sicily. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted July 3, 2012 Author Share Posted July 3, 2012 So, if I were to ask to include covert Mafia operatives for the Americans we'd get those? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mord Posted July 3, 2012 Share Posted July 3, 2012 Welcome back, buddy! We may not see them in the title but I can't imagine they'd be left out of one of the modules. So, you'll most likely get them...just have to wait until they get to them. Sounds like content releases are gonna be faster than we saw for CMSF. LOL time will tell. Mord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 birdstrike, Why wouldn't they be? The M10 GMC had its combat debut with the 805th TD Battalion at El Guettar, Tunisia. This information is explicitly stated in US Tank And Tank Destroyer Battalions in the Eto 1944-45, p. 14, By Steven J. Zaloga. El Guettar (23 March-April 7 1943) occurred before Sicily was invaded (9 July-17 August 1943). See also Wiki under COMBAT http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M10_tank_destroyer Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 We had 'em, we just didn't commit any M10 units to combat in Sicily, I don't think they even transported them onto the island. By the same token the Germans left their sdkfz 251s on the mainland too. An inconvenient fact, considering I already had the vehicles all skinned. Ah well, something to look forward to for the next module. The price of historical accuracy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 MikeyD, Would never have expected that regarding the M10s, and NEVER encountered the leaving the 251s behind. Shipping shortage, I wonder? In any event, your work wasn't wasted, merely postponed! Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 The Tiger tank is going to be a terror in this game, even if they don't fix the turret armor (and I hope they do). It looks like the US will have nothing capable of penetrating it frontally except maybe the towed 57mm gun, and I'm not sure about even that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I mentioned elsewhere that Germans experience in Sicily greatly influenced their decisions in Normandy. They had developed a deathly fear of moving their tank units into naval artillery range. I suppose your most effective anti-Tiger weapon in the game is going to be a heavy cruiser stationed offshore. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 That is somehow not reassuring In reality the Tiger had a marked tendency to break down when attempting to climb the long steep hills typical of Italy. In fact, once the Germans learned to keep them out of off-shore battery range the Allies discovered that the best way to take out the Tigers was to force them to move. They did this by simply concentrating their attacks where ever the Tigers were not. The Germans attempted to counter this in turn by dispersing the Tigers across the front, which was contrary to the official German doctrine. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Vanir Ausf B, Rarity should be an issue. Here's why. http://www.lonesentry.com/panzer/tiger-tank-sicily.html This should make you feel better. http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/pzkw6/index.html As should this UNLESS semi-AP is really APDS. Fascinating engagement account nonetheless. http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_attacktiger/index.html This, though, may give you nightmares. http://www.thedropzone.org/europe/Sicily/mccandless.html Way too exciting! http://ww2tribute.blogspot.com/2011/05/battle-of-biazza-ridge_05.html Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Rarity should be an issue. Here's why. http://www.lonesentry.com/panzer/tiger-tank-sicily.html In QBs. If rarity is used. And even then, the way rarity works in CM you can typically buy at least one of anything unless it's a small game. I do hope BFC adjusts the point values in QBs to reflect that a Tiger I in 1943 was relatively at least as powerful a weapon as a King Tiger in mid-late 1944. This should make you feel better. http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/pzkw6/index.html Not really. I was aware the 6 pdr could penetrate from the side. It can from the front sometimes. That's why I mentioned the US 57mm previously, although I suspect CM may give it slightly less penetration than the British version due to the burster cap in the same way it does 75mm. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaws Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Well it could be that there will be an Italy expansion sooner or later and it would solve the M10 issue 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I mentioned elsewhere that Germans experience in Sicily greatly influenced their decisions in Normandy. They had developed a deathly fear of moving their tank units into naval artillery range. I suppose your most effective anti-Tiger weapon in the game is going to be a heavy cruiser stationed offshore. Will the rarity value for naval bombardment be reduced in FI, to reflect this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 The PzKw 6 is now considered a standard German tank. Present production figures are believed to be at a maximum of 800 per month. From : Observer's report on the destruction of two German Tiger tanks by British anti-tank guns in North Africa, from Tactical and Technical Trends, July 29, 1943. Might explain why troops mistook IV's for VI's if this was a widely circulated assumption. And also does underline perhaps need for up-gunning. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdstrike Posted July 4, 2012 Author Share Posted July 4, 2012 I did some digging in my Zalogas, and it seems the main reason why none of the M10s from Tunesia were used in Sicily was a heated argument about the usefulness of self-propelled TDs. A number of influencial Generals, including Patton and Bradley were not impressed by the performance of TDs in North Africa and the advocats of artillery, led by General McNair, head of Army Ground Forces and an artilleryman himself, firmly believed in AT guns, dismissing the advantages of self-propelled TDs. The general(s') opinion was that the best way to deal with enemy tanks was to use tanks on the offense and ATGs on the defense. With the debate going back and forth in 1943, it seems obvious why even the existing TD units were treated with disdain in Sicily. We had 'em, we just didn't commit any M10 units to combat in Sicily, I don't think they even transported them onto the island. By the same token the Germans left their sdkfz 251s on the mainland too. An inconvenient fact, considering I already had the vehicles all skinned. Ah well, something to look forward to for the next module. The price of historical accuracy. Now if only you could convince them to include Salerno in the base game, we'd both be happy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Tigers are to 6 pdrs as Shermans are to Italian 47mm AT. You think you're invulnerable until you find your optics smashed or your track broken or your gun put out of action. He still can't penetrate you but you've become combat ineffective. It seems the AT gunner's greatest asset is his opponent's overconfidence. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 birdstrike, McNair was an idiot, as subsequent loss figures for towed TD battalions showed in Gabel's "Seek, Strike and Destroy." MikeyD, The 6 pdrs killed a Tiger I in Tunisia. The account here clearly specifies Shot 5 nearly went through and Shots 6-8 got complete penetrations. What's unclear is whether "semi-AP" is APDS or something else. http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_attacktiger/index.html Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 MikeyD, In the Pacific, Japanese 47mm fires shot a Sherman-equipped Marine Tank Regiment to pieces. Can't remember the island name, though. It was the one where the real fight was waged inland, rather than contesting the landing. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 The 6 pdrs killed a Tiger I in Tunisia. The account here clearly specifies Shot 5 nearly went through and Shots 6-8 got complete penetrations. Through the side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 I picked up Harry Yeide's book " The Tank Kiillers" yesterday for about $10 at a second-hand bookshop. Therefore I will be able to quote liberally : ) Interesting read as I have one action were the Germans nailed 5 M10's for no loss. Sort of confirms lies , dammed lies and statistics. Or more helpfully that in the right/wrong circumstances any force can be stuffed. There is no doubt though that the TD's with the heavier gun where definitely useful in a world of vanilla 75s. At the Falaise fighting the M10 armed 776th TD battalion nailed 46 tanks and SP guns and 77 vehicles. Good going. How did the towed ATG battlaion do .... 607th 34 tanks, 23 SP guns, 9 halftracks and 64 other vehicles. Horses for courses! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 MikeyD, Suggest you go back and read this account. In it, it's clear that the 6 pdrs got three clean penetrations. http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt_attacktiger/index.html John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 dieseltaylor, Sounds like a great book. I used to have a monograph on one of the M10 battalions, but it mysteriously disappeared, along with most of my AFV-G2 collection! Would be very interested to see who was sited where and what the target arrays looked like. Gabel shows the towed TD battalions not only performed far worse than their SP cousins, but suffered much higher casualties. This is wholly consistent with the Russian name for towed ATGs--"Farewell the Motherland!" Vanir Ausf B, Maybe I need to reread it, but it seemed to me that the Tiger was slightly angled to increase effective armor thickness, which accounts for the gouges and scalloping, but it wasn't clear to me that the Tiger turned side on. From what I saw, it seemed more like they were shooting the much larger target represented by the front of the tank. If, though, all that MG buttoning fire caused the Tiger to turn the wrong way, then you are correct in your assessment. I believe RAC Bovington has a Tiger I from Tunisia which took a 6-pdr hit smack on the collar for the main gun. Let me see what I can turn up. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Vanir Ausf B, Maybe I need to reread it, but it seemed to me that the Tiger was slightly angled to increase effective armor thickness, which accounts for the gouges and scalloping, but it wasn't clear to me that the Tiger turned side on. From what I saw, it seemed more like they were shooting the much larger target represented by the front of the tank. If, though, all that MG buttoning fire caused the Tiger to turn the wrong way, then you are correct in your assessment. I believe RAC Bovington has a Tiger I from Tunisia which took a 6-pdr hit smack on the collar for the main gun. Let me see what I can turn up. Regards, John Kettler You need to reread it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Kettler Posted July 4, 2012 Share Posted July 4, 2012 Vanir Ausf B, Here's a high res pic of Tiger 131 from RAC Bovington. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tiger131ricochet.JPG As you see from the projectile track down the gun collar, across the bottom of the collar bracket, the lower edge of the turret face and into the turret ring, this shot was taken with the turret forward and facing the 6-pdr which made the shot. As you can see, the damage is pretty impressive. In fact, closer inspection reveals apparent multiple, closely spaced hits in the turret ring. Per the Wiki, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_I here's what happened. Tiger 131 On 21 April 1943, a Tiger I of the 504th German heavy tank battalion, with turret number 131, was captured on a hill called Djebel Djaffa in Tunisia. A 6-pounder solid shot from a Churchill tank of the British 48th Royal Tank Regiment hit the Tiger's gun barrel and ricocheted into its turret ring, jamming its traverse and wounding the commander. The crew bailed out and the tank was captured.[Notes 4][30][page needed]. After repairs, the tank was sent to England for a thorough inspection. Regards, John Kettler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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