Operation market garden

[Placebo]

Just a thought on the next module and campaign. As the outcome of op market garden was so not dependent on other areas outside of the scope of the operation, (compared with normandy, where one battle groups actions would not have directly affected the overall success of the invasion).

Will it will be possible to turn market garden into an Allied victory (and the war being over by Christmas ) if all the Allied objectives can be achieved.

[poesel]

No - CM is such a good simulation that historically inaccurate outcomes are impossible.

(because else someone WILL misunderstand that)

[Childress]

Will it will be possible to turn market garden into an Allied victory (and the war being over by Christmas ) if all the Allied objectives can be achieved.

No, you'd want a strategic sim for that.

Brace yourselves. Upcoming modules will feature Allied troops with bloody noses; Market Garden, Huertgen Forest, even the first week of the Bulge. Of course, Nazi-loving trolls like ***** or ********** will be in heaven. Or should that be Himmel?

[Bradley Dick]

Huertgen Forest

I would love to see a good scenario for this. That was one of the bloodiest and most pointless fights in the entire war.

[A Canadian Cat]

Will it will be possible to turn market garden into an Allied victory (and the war being over by Christmas ) if all the Allied objectives can be achieved.

No BFC will prevent that - after all they don't want the war to be over quickly in game because they would not be able to sell the next module.

[Broadsword56]

No, you'd want a strategic sim for that.

Brace yourselves. Upcoming modules will feature Allied troops with bloody noses; Market Garden, Huertgen Forest, even the first week of the Bulge. Of course, Nazi-loving trolls like ***** or ********** will be in heaven. Or should that be Himmel?

I beg to differ: The advantage the Germans had in Market Garden was mainly at the operational and strategic level. The Germans won because of the way their senior commanders were able to improvise and rapidly deploy the necessary forces on the fly. And the Germans had lots of tanks and heavy weapons to deploy against lightly-equipped airborne troops. But...

Those who love to play as Germans need to brace yourselves for a radically different type of army than you have been used to playing with in Normandy. The summer battles in France left the German units shattered, most of the good veterans and leaders dead. The majority of the German units in Market Garden were thrown-together formations of hastily equipped and scarcely trained green recruits, Luftwaffe "ear" and "stomach" battalions of invalids and old men, aircraft signallers, Feldgendarmerie MPs, you name it. The exception to this are the 9th SS Pz (Hohenstaufen) and 10th SS Pz (Frundsberg) divisions.

So, if you want to play historically at a tactical level along Hell's Highway, for example, you'd need to set up a lot of equipment irregularities and "soft" factors to represent this in CMBN. And these hopeless troops will be facing the battle-hardened best-of-the best: 101st and 82nd Airborne, and the British 1st Paras. However, I'd give even green and poorly led German units a very high motivation level because in OMG they knew they were fighting on the doorstep of the Reich.

[Michael Emrys]

As the outcome of op market garden was so not dependent on other areas outside of the scope of the operation...

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. One of the reasons that the operation failed to achieve all its objectives is because the Germans were able to continue to attack the flanks of the salient. They were able to do that because the corps on both sides of XXX Corps did not, for whatever reason, advance quickly enough to protect its flanks.

This is by no measure the only reason the operation failed, and for my part I am unwilling to say that it was the decisive cause, but neither was it an insignificant cause.

Michael

[Newa]

However, I'd give even green and poorly led German units a very high motivation level because in OMG they knew they were fighting on the doorstep of the Reich.

I'll disagree there. Yes some of the soldiers were third echelon troops but their leadership was top notch, their NCOs were battle tested, but their moral was terribly low, it wasn't motivation that won them the day, it was the lack of logistical support from the ally's that ultimately cost them the operation.

But as one can imagine it was the multitudes of problems for the ally's that really lost them the day. My argument I suppose is that it wasn't the motivation that helped them win, it was the Ally's over ambition. Well that and the Germans out numbed and outgunned the Ally's who jumped out of plans to attack behind enemy lines.....na, that couldn't of affected anything.

/endrantarguementthing

[sburke]

Huertgen Forest

I would love to see a good scenario for this. That was one of the bloodiest and most pointless fights in the entire war.

I'd posted a mostly complete map based on the AO of the Battle for Schmidt featured in the Gamers TCS game Objective Schmidt. I have yet to experiment at all with creating a scenario or campaign, but I may consider one for that. What I am more likely to do is adapt the Gamers TCS op sheets rules for those interested in running a campaign game of this. The TCS rules would make for a really outstanding OP layer as they will determine your reinforcement levels, ammo supply, battle plans for a C&C level etc. The downside is players whined for months about Courage and Fortitude. DO NOT expect to win as the Americans in the Huertgen. Victory levels would have to be based on how badly you lose. If you are only interested in fighting battles with a better than even chance of winning and don't like getting hit constantly with artillery while your exhausted troops plod through muddy forests filled with mines and machine gun nests, I'd stick to MG battles and what I would assume would also include Lorraine campaign battles. (If you are assuming it is going to be any more fun as the Germans, don't count on it) Huertgen will make the Bocage look like an elementary school picnick outing.

[Vark]

However, I'd give even green and poorly led German units a very high motivation level because in OMG they knew they were fighting on the doorstep of the Reich.

Don't know about that in Market Garden, if you equate very high motivation with a desire to maintain assaults and close with the enemy. Some troops fought well, but a lot of the attacks were not pressed home with much aggression, lots of tenacious defending but a certain reluctance to press home attacks. Makes sense really, Hitler is pouring reinforcements into the area, you have lots of artillery, and a massive advantage in armour (In the Arnhem sector at least), just constantly probe and launch limited attacks, the enemy has dwindling supplies and limited reinforcement, eventually you will win.

I think the Reich motivation factor is more apparent facing East. The soldiers on that front were all too aware of how they had behaved in Russian and knew they were fighting the whirlwind poised at their borders.

[Vark]

I'd posted a mostly complete map based on the AO of the Battle for Schmidt

Does that include the Kall Trail and Kommerscheidt?

[sburke]

Does that include the Kall Trail and Kommerscheidt?

Yep. I started with a map that actually had Vossenack as well, but the only way to fit that into CM was to do a proportional rather than scale map. I started down that path and then started thinking about the implications of it (penetration characteristics, weapons ranges etc) and realized while it might make for an interesting map, it would not make for being able to quite reproduce the battle. Here are links to a screenshot and the file on the repository. It is simply the first mock up. I am hoping for buildings that better match the area as well as other flavor objects before attempting to really complete it. I know other folks have also expressed interest in recreating some of the earlier battles as well prior to commitment of the 28th Division to this sector.

http://www.battlefront.com/components/com_remository_files/file_image_1574/img_1574_01.jpg

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_remository&Itemid=314&func=fileinfo&id=1574

[Bradley Dick]

Hey sburke,

Thanks for attempting that somewhat ambitious project. What made you give it up? When I was trying to design some scenarios for that battle I found that they just weren't fun. There was too much blood and confusion which doesn't result in much tactical fun for the players. Not to mention the system hogging nature of a forest map clogged with soldiers in various states of panic with artillery splashing everywhere.

[Vark]

I don't think it's fun in any game system. Spent hours designing maps for the area for SPWAW (their maps were a joke). Eagerly I tried to play my creation, urghh! The Kall trail just got most of my armour bogged, the rest was a slogging grind, terrain enforced a boring hey diddle diddle straight up the middle approach and everything slowed to a crawl. This was SPWAW and not CM, I dread to think what a CM rendition would be like, making a no-remove trees, graphics rule might get players to experience a few of the frustrations felt by the real combatants.

Same thing with my Falklands scenarios, lovely maps, realistic TOE's, boring games as a result. Learned quite a few things about scenario design, especially tweaking them to suit the game system.

Sburke, was the Objective Schmidt game any good? I nearly bought it, but went for an Ardennes one instead.

[sburke]

Hey sburke,

Thanks for attempting that somewhat ambitious project. What made you give it up? When I was trying to design some scenarios for that battle I found that they just weren't fun. There was too much blood and confusion which doesn't result in much tactical fun for the players. Not to mention the system hogging nature of a forest map clogged with soldiers in various states of panic with artillery splashing everywhere.

I haven't given it up, just took a pause to give BFC a chance to address some of the issues that had come up (not being able to exit bunkers, issues with loading large maps etc) and wanting to wait for possible new terrain or flavor items more appropriate for the area.

Large maps do seem to be functioning a lot better and bunkers now work, but there does appear to be another issue with wire and I am eagerly awaiting any news at all as to what kind of terrain/building/flavor objects we might see in the MG module. It was also suggested to me at one point to possibly wait for the Bulge game to really get this right. I am not sure I'd want to wait that long and I could simply redo it for the game family. With the work that was recently done with the mapping tool by Stoneage, it may just make that a little bit easier.

All that being said, yeah I think you are correct, the battles in the Huertgen are going to have a somewhat narrow appeal. Kind of like the Omaha beach landing. Not everyone is that excited about getting slaughtered on the beach for a while, but at least there you do have a clear victory condition that actually was achieved. Vossenack is a good example of how this could be just the opposite, the US put a battalion in an exposed position and the Germans pounded the crap out of them with artillery for so long, the unit simply broke and ran. As The Gamers noted in some of their footnote discussions, this is a battle fought because those planning the Strategic and Operational levels failed. It is not the type of engagement an attacker should ever have pursued. For those (like myself) who have jumped on Montgomery for the MG plan, that at least was a gamble that failed. Huertgen was simply really bad generalship on the US part with a cost far higher than MG. For those interested I would recommend A Dark and Bloody Ground by Edward G Miller.

My real preference would be for a Lorraine campaign, but I'd have to really learn mapping techniques from Broadsword and LLF AND learn how to use that mapping tool. I've also been looking at using the gamers TCS game Screaming Eagles. It would take 4 4x4 maps to cover that entire AO. They specifically cite in their game specific rulebook on the use of windmills as FO locations so I'd like to see how BFC implements them as a building before trying to deal with maps on that scale. I am also still tinkering with an urban battlefield. LLF and I are trying out an urban fight in CMSF and I think he has done an outstanding job of making a map that gives infantry a fighting chance. The only premise of that is the ability to fire some AT weapons from inside a building. I'd really not like to turn this into a rehash of that subject, but I think it is very possible to create an urban battlefield that will allow for better infantry AT capability even w/o being able to fire from within buildings. My ambitions are far and above what I actually have time for.

[sburke]

I don't think it's fun in any game system. Spent hours designing maps for the area for SPWAW (their maps were a joke). Eagerly I tried to play my creation, urghh! The Kall trail just got most of my armour bogged, the rest was a slogging grind, terrain enforced a boring hey diddle diddle straight up the middle approach and everything slowed to a crawl.

Sburke, was the Objective Schmidt game any good? I nearly bought it, but went for an Ardennes one instead.

To be honest I never really got the chance to play it out, but I suspect that if I had my findings would have been similar to yours. What interested me enough to try was the rules system. Bloody 110 is just a huge map area to try and pull off. Screaming Eagles though still large is not so ridiculous and one wouldn't have to map the entire AO from the game, just the likely combat areas.

Broadsword has been using St Lo as the op layer for a campaign and it has really been an outstanding experience. I think The Gamers scale (125 meters per hex, platoon and individual vehicle/gun) may work a little better though and I really like the opsheet format they use as emulating the staff problems in trying to fight a battle. Screaming Eagles essentially covers about 48 hours with a couple regiments on each side. The Germans are basically split into two commands that have difficulting coordinating while the Allies are defending with interior lines and a single command staff well organized by General McAuliffe. It looks to be a much more fluid battle than Schmidt with some interesting units on both sides.

[Childress]

All that being said, yeah I think you are correct, the battles in the Huertgen are going to have a somewhat narrow appeal. Kind of like the Omaha beach landing. Not everyone is that excited about getting slaughtered on the beach for a while, but at least there you do have a clear victory condition that actually was achieved.

One of the major issues for the Americans in the Huertgen mess was, I seem to recall, the inability to properly deploy mortars in the heavily forested terrain. That branch was basically nerfed. Does CM2 reflect this inhibition? I don't recall.

[womble]

One of the major issues for the Americans in the Huertgen mess was, I seem to recall, the inability to properly deploy mortars in the heavily forested terrain. That branch was basically nerfed. Does CM2 reflect this inhibition? I don't recall.

ISTR some mention of cover overhead of the firing position giving "No LOS" results for direct fire at least. Enough that I have formed the habit of keeping my mortars out from under trees as far as possible...

[Vark]

The main problem was fighting in terrain which stripped away the key allied strengths. Forests gave protection from spotter planes and ground attack, the gloop they fought in, mud is to mild a word, and the narrow tracks they operated along negated the armoured advantage of numbers and speed of manoeuvre. Supplies were restricted, especially during the Schmidt operation by the treacherous Kall trail and finally the planners were imbeciles. There was a very good article on the whole affair, in Military Review which was a litany of command mistakes, misconceptions and inadequacies, Market Garden was the epitomy of good planning in contrast.

[Erwin]

"Market Garden was the epitomy of good planning in contrast." The moral being (lol)...?

[Vark]

Actually Market garden was a significant adaptation of an existing plan, hurriedly cobbled together in IIRC 11 days. If the die had fallen slightly differently and XXX Corps had arrived behind their artillery we would have have probably been looking at the 39-44 war, in the ETO. The Huertgen mess, sorry operation, would have required divine intervention to succeed ; the moral, if you are going to place your men in danger of being killed, maimed and mutilated at least give them a chance of success.

[sburke]

Actually Market garden was a significant adaptation of an existing plan, hurriedly cobbled together in IIRC 11 days. If the die had fallen slightly differently and XXX Corps had arrived behind their artillery we would have have probably been looking at the 39-44 war, in the ETO. The Huertgen mess, sorry operation, would have required divine intervention to succeed ; the moral, if you are going to place your men in danger of being killed, maimed and mutilated at least give them a chance of success.

And have clear objectives. The battles in the Huertgen suffered from a lack of a clearly defined objective. Edward G Miller goes to great lengths to review how long it took the American leadership to understand and define the Roer river dams as the proper objective and focus.

MG whatever other faults it may or may not have had did have a very clear goal. Get a bridge across the Rhine. Everybody knew the objective and what that meant for their specific task. Whether it was achievable or if all the units had the proper tools etc is a different issue.

[Blazing 88's]

I beg to differ: The advantage the Germans had in Market Garden was mainly at the operational and strategic level. The Germans won because of the way their senior commanders were able to improvise and rapidly deploy the necessary forces on the fly. And the Germans had lots of tanks and heavy weapons to deploy against lightly-equipped airborne troops. But...

Those who love to play as Germans need to brace yourselves for a radically different type of army than you have been used to playing with in Normandy. The summer battles in France left the German units shattered, most of the good veterans and leaders dead. The majority of the German units in Market Garden were thrown-together formations of hastily equipped and scarcely trained green recruits, Luftwaffe "ear" and "stomach" battalions of invalids and old men, aircraft signallers, Feldgendarmerie MPs, you name it. The exception to this are the 9th SS Pz (Hohenstaufen) and 10th SS Pz (Frundsberg) divisions.

So, if you want to play historically at a tactical level along Hell's Highway, for example, you'd need to set up a lot of equipment irregularities and "soft" factors to represent this in CMBN. And these hopeless troops will be facing the battle-hardened best-of-the best: 101st and 82nd Airborne, and the British 1st Paras. However, I'd give even green and poorly led German units a very high motivation level because in OMG they knew they were fighting on the doorstep of the Reich.

One of the main reasons CMx1 still rocks my world. Can't wait for the new engines and user made scenarios / campaigns for early war stuff 41-43 etc.

[sburke]

One of the main reasons CMx1 still rocks my world. Can't wait for the new engines and user made scenarios / campaigns for early war stuff 41-43 etc.

That could be a long wait. As I understand it CMx2 is much more difficult to try and mod for that. That being said, I don't think anyone expected to see Marines and Japanese infantry anytime soon either. Our modder community is pretty dang creative.

I know it is so far down the list of possibilites I may not ever see it, but I'd love to be able to do the battle for France 1940.

[Myles Keogh]

For the Market-Garden module. I'm assuming we're probably not going to see the return of river crossings so as to recreate the legendary crossing of the Waal River by the 3/504th.

So, we may get some Dutch themed terrain features and the Fallschirmjaegers will finally be making an appearance, but what else will make the cut? Flak weapons? They were featured heavily in ground combat by the Germans throughout Market-Garden so it would be nice to see them arrive in the CMBN world.