Use of infantry AT-assets from the buildings (yes, again...)

[Denis1973]

Just two points.

1. Why soldiers can't use grenades and satchel charges from buildings? I've made some test and no one want to throw grenade/charge through window on enemy tank. Nor from ground, nor from second (and upper) floor. While they aggressively use grenades from outside the house. What is difference for throwing a grenade from house and from open ground? Come closer to window, aim and throw. No backblast or something. Especially from higher floors - just unclasp fingers and it find it's way.

2. Panzerfausts. Yes, it have a backblast and generally couldn't be fired from inside the building. But how it happen in real life?

Lets imagine - german AT-man sit in the house. US armor moved down the street alongside. Hans wait, while tank passed the house, then run through door to street, aim and fire to panzer's rear. Then retreat to house. Mission accomplished.

What we have in CMBN? This trick can be done in real-time mode: wait while tank passed the house, then issue command 'run' to street and 'target' to fire at enemy.

But how can we do this in WEGO mode? Player must estimate the speed of tank, time when it is safe to run to the street, set cover ark to force pixelman fire at exact target... Almost impossible, I suppose.

So, maybe BF discarded that prohibition on firing from the building? At least for PzF-30, 30k and bazooka. Scherck have enough range to fire even from positions at open and really strong backblast, so it may be forbidden to indoor use.

[simmox]

i certainly miss the ol CM1 style of explosive usage

dangerous stuff to drive your tiger down a street full of buildings

not so now,in fact,you can use it quite advantagously

ive read infantry can indeed take out a tank at close range but ive yet to see it

and not for lack of trying.

but im also trying to appreciate this is a RT game base and not turn based

pity most of my opponents dont get into RT,as you miss too much of the sweet actions

[simmox]

well,just as i thought it was a myth

i actually witnessed my first demo charges take out some armor,mine worst luck:)

2 in one turn as a matter of fact

some german pioneers took out 2 shermans at close range,less than 20m,with satchel charges

impressive,if some what painful

good show

[Denis1973]

some german pioneers took out 2 shermans at close range,less than 20m,with satchel chargesi

Actually 6-7 m. Tested by myself. Grenades range 13 m against tank, 25 m against infantry.

But all this at open, not from inside the building...

[stikkypixie]

Actually 6-7 m. Tested by myself. Grenades range 13 m against tank, 25 m against infantry.

But all this at open, not from inside the building...

I have seen soldiers throw grenades from inside buildings to tanks.

[Denis1973]

I have seen soldiers throw grenades from inside buildings to tanks.

Are you sure that they throw grenades to tank? Maybe they throw it to enemy infantry near the tank?

Because I have made the tests and soldiers and engineers refused to throw grenades/satchels to tank, while actively do this when target was infantry.

[A Canadian Cat]

Are you sure that they throw grenades to tank? Maybe they throw it to enemy infantry near the tank?

Because I have made the tests and soldiers and engineers refused to throw grenades/satchels to tank, while actively do this when target was infantry.

I cannot speak for throwing grenades from buildings but I have seen it happen twice now with infantry outside. Both times I lost the tank to multiple grenade hits - on the engine deck sides and underneath.

[stikkypixie]

Are you sure that they throw grenades to tank? Maybe they throw it to enemy infantry near the tank?

Because I have made the tests and soldiers and engineers refused to throw grenades/satchels to tank, while actively do this when target was infantry.

Pretty sure, it was in the previous patch though, so something might have changed. Also it was a armoured car but I suspect it's the same AI logic.

[Baneman]

I've definitely seen German infantry lob more than one stick-grenade into the open top of an American TD ( might have been one of the smaller varieties of open topped AFV ).

I don't have CW, so it's certainly the case in 1.01 - may even have happened in 1.00.

It was brutal. They were extremely close though.

[Bimmer]

I watched US infantry lob multiple grenades into loaded halftracks from the second floor of a building in v1.10. They were effective.

[waffelmann]

Tried it with german pioneers in a house vs british sherman.

1 pioneer-squad on the first floor (second-floor???), the platoon-hq on the ground floor.

They done nothing exept from shooting the tank-commander.

The tank then fires at the HQ which leaves the house. Exact after leaving the building the HQ begin to throw grenades.

The pioneer-squad throws greandes and demo-charges , too, after leaving the building.

This was with CW-Modul, patch 1.10.

greetings, alex

[akd]

Now try same against an open-top AFV.

[waffelmann]

I will try it later, but what does this show?

So it is itentionally that the pioneers only can use their demo-charges and grenades against tanks in the open?

Then how I fight against tanks in an urban enviroment? Especially when I play WEGO where it is extrem difficult to time a good attack against a tank?

greetings, alex

[waffelmann]

So, tried it.

They killed from inside the house an archilles without hesitation, but refused to attack a cromwell...

So again: is this intentionally (and then why?) or is this a bug?????

greetings, alex

[Denis1973]

Hey, comrades, what about are you amazed? It is true that infantry throw grenades from buildings to open-top vehicles. It is stated in manual.

I'm speak about not-open-top vehicles (exactly the tank).

And I can't understand why throwing grenades from buildings to M-10 is differed from throwing to M4A :eek:

[Boche]

Hey, comrades, what about are you amazed? It is true that infantry throw grenades from buildings to open-top vehicles. It is stated in manual.

I'm speak about not-open-top vehicles (exactly the tank).

And I can't understand why throwing grenades from buildings to M-10 is differed from throwing to M4A :eek:

The M4 has a roof, the M10 does not

[Denis1973]

The M4 has a roof, the M10 does not

I'm aware about this, but what is the difference for throwing grenades from open space and from houses???:confused:

Is this a weird kind of realism? Or just a bug?

[c3k]

All the following is OPINION, not based on hard data.

The grenade throwing is a REPRESENTATION of close assaulting a tank. Tanks are made to be proof against various artillery calibers. In fact, most could survive a top hit by up to a 105mm HE shell. "Survive" is a relative term. A 75mm/81mm HE top hit should not damage the tank, more than knocking out antennae and some ancillary equipment.

Now, the above is a ROUGH estimation. Tanks were built to be PROOF against shell splinters from near misses and tough enough to SURVIVE top hits from the most common artillery shells in use.

Compare that artillery shell to the hand grenade. Yeah.

Now, take that hand grenade and see if you can throw it from within a building and have it actually land on top of the tank...and stay there.

I suggest an experiment. I assume you own a car? If not, borrow a friend's. Park it outside your house/apartment. On the street, in a city; a driveway for the 'burbs. Now, if it's your car, grab a few apples. If it's your buddy's, a few fist-sized rocks. Pick a window, on any floor. Now, start throwing the apples (rocks) at the car and tell us when you get one to land on the car. (Through a window doesn't count!)

Yeah.

Ah, but you say, "I got some apples to roll UNDER the car." Okay. Do you think a grenade sitting on the ground under a tank would do ANYTHING to the tank? It may just knock the mud off the bottom, which would lighten the tank, and improve its gas mileage. So, the odds are a grenade going off under a tank would HELP the tank.

Once the infantry is OUT of the house, they "close assault" a tank. They are no longer restricted to staying inside the structure, so, and this is NOT shown, but is simulated (my opinion/experience), one of the men can grab a satchel charge or a bundle of grenades and place it ON the tank. BOOM. (The old "land mine under the rear turret overhang trick.")

This is "shown" by a grenade sailing through the air, rather than a guy leaving the action spot and "counting croupe" on the tank.

An open-topped vehicle is inviting a rain of grenades. (Borrow a convertible and try the apple experiment again. (Fresh apples aren't needed if it's a borrowed car.))

So...most of the time a grenade flying through the air represents, well, a grenade flying through the air. SOMETIMES (especially against a closed-top AFV) a grenade flying through the air represents a man with explosives attempting to place the explosives on the tank.

Capiche?

Ken

[The Teacher]

I watched my SS scout team in a third story building throw a grenade at a Achilles tank destroyer below. The grenade exploded in the open turret.

I thought to myself' nice work ' and then a British infantry squad rushed the building and they were welcomed by 3 grenades.

So overall Im happy with the grenade festivals of shrapnel love

[waffelmann]

so if this behavior is intentionally then it is extrem difficult for the AI to defend a town or village against tanks...

Even for a human will it be difficult (with WEG), but for the AI I see no way to split a group off with anti-tank-assets, to leave the building and attack the tank from behind...

greetings, alex

[Denis1973]

Once the infantry is OUT of the house, they "close assault" a tank. They are no longer restricted to staying inside the structure, so, and this is NOT shown, but is simulated (my opinion/experience), one of the men can grab a satchel charge or a bundle of grenades and place it ON the tank.

So...most of the time a grenade flying through the air represents, well, a grenade flying through the air. SOMETIMES (especially against a closed-top AFV) a grenade flying through the air represents a man with explosives attempting to place the explosives on the tank.

Good point. But not without flaws.

1. It is frequently stated that "what you see is what you get". So, if exist exceptions from this general rule, what exactly the exceptions? Because when I'm plan a battle, I must exactly know what expect from each position, course of action and so on.

2. OK, we have some 'representations' in the game. What is about to represent man run out from building, placed a bomb on top of tank and run back to safety while tank makes BOOM?

So again, I haven't see the differences.

[phil stanbridge]

I've seen grenades lobbed on to armoured vehicles many times. In fact I've just had a Stug damaged from one such attack in my last battle. No infantry in support either, so they were definitely looking at taking the tank out with small arms.

[Denis1973]

I've made series of tests (at 1.01) and even if tank located so close to the house wall, that is shown partially inside the building, infantry refused to throw grenades and charges. While do this when outside the building.

Bug or feature?

[Denis1973]

Tried it with german pioneers in a house vs british sherman.

1 pioneer-squad on the first floor (second-floor???), the platoon-hq on the ground floor.

They done nothing exept from shooting the tank-commander.

The tank then fires at the HQ which leaves the house. Exact after leaving the building the HQ begin to throw grenades.

The pioneer-squad throws greandes and demo-charges , too, after leaving the building.

This was with CW-Modul, patch 1.10.

greetings, alex

I have the same results in 1.01

[phil stanbridge]

I've made series of tests (at 1.01) and even if tank located so close to the house wall, that is shown partially inside the building, infantry refused to throw grenades and charges. While do this when outside the building.

Bug or feature?

Interesting. Do you think they might be trying to self-preserve or something? If infantry are that close to an AFV would they actually let off a HE grenade so close? My results were about 10-15m or so from the tank. I saw a number of Canadian grenades flying through the air. But ironically, the chap with the PIAT refused to fire.