Frustrating discrepancy between LOS tool and 3D environment?

[YankeeDog]

Once someone actually has eyes on a target, it would be better if the "system" would automatically get the primary weapon to the LOS position (if possible) so that it could take a shot.

This is the best one-sentence summary of this issue I have seen yet. It is worth noting that the game already has a behavior that handles this situation, but only for soldiers with small arms -- as long as they're armed with nothing larger than an LMG, individual soldiers in a team will redeploy within the action spot in response to new Face/Cover Arc orders, and/or to gain LOF to a known enemy. This small-arms only "LOF Hunting" behavior works pretty well, IME.

But anything MMG or larger will not do this. As far as I can tell, once a "heavy weapon" is deployed, and the tripod, baseplate, wheels or whatever are down on a specific spot, the crew will rotate the weapon to face a new direction but they will not move the weapon's base so much as an inch from its current location without new movement orders (and note that FACE and COVER ARC orders, being combat orders, will not cause the heavy weapon to move within the action spot, only rotate). This can lead to some improbable behaviors where e.g. a tripod mounted HMG will be unable to fire on an enemy, when all they would need to do is drag the tripod a couple of feet further up the rise (and within the same Action Spot) to be able to engage.

Vehicles are a little different, but as far as I can tell the problem here is similar -- absent player orders, vehicles will rotate to face a new threat, but they will not jockey forward or back so much as an inch without player order.

Major exception to the above is if the unit's self-preservation kicks in, and it decides to attempt to break contact on its own. In this case, of course the unit will move without player orders. But this is really a different thing entirely.

Personally, I lack the knowledge to say exactly how this could/should be "fixed"... My hope would be that the "LOF Hunting" behavior that Riflemen and LMG gunners can already do in the game could be somehow extended to heavy weapons and vehicles. Obviously, there would need to be some differences as it's a lot easier for a rifleman to shift position 2m to his left than it is for a 75mm AT gun to do the same. But the same principle applies.

[malfuriouspete]

One thing I'm not to sure about is the colour of the LOS line. So the light blue means that everyone can see the target.. but what about the dark blue/pink like in Gurra's picture? His LOS is dark blue through the wheatfield then becomes pink at the point where he is clicking on.

Is it the same concept as in CMx1 where if you track back only the LOS line you will come to the point which can actually be seen by the squad? If I recall.. in CMx1, even if you are pointing at a target far away, behind trees and in a valley, the LOS tool will show you up to what point the unit can see something.. past that, it turned black or something (been awhile since i've barbarossa to berlin and maybe I dreamed this up!!...)

Maybe I'll answer my own question.. I think it doesn't work like this. In Gurra's pic, the entire line is dark blue, even the points which can be seen by the tank (i.e right in front of it).

I know its something that probably can't be achieved in the game, but in Gurra's situation.. the point that he is looking at past the wheatfield, it would be nice if the LOS tool showed him from which position (or at least a best guess by the unit, along the line) where the point is visible from instead of just telling him "this point can't be seen" by a long dark line.

[hoolaman]

I think it is suppposed to work like that, but the action spot system seems to make it a lot less clear and simple than the old CMx1 LOS line.

I suspect that it might actually be the closest crestline near the trees right next to the tank that is the problem rather than anything down in the field.

Probably most of us understand how the current system work, Hoolaman. The problem is that (in his instance at least) it's silly. It leads to much frustration to the player.

Yes I'm sure most do know, but I bet many newer players don't.

The reason I mentioned it is that it doesn't matter at all where the 3D model of the tank commanders head is, it only matters where the LOS line is traced from. Given that it is the same height for all tanks, there are cases where a tank can have a fair bit of the turret sticking out visually, but no LOS granted by the system.

[poesel]

What I don't fully understand is the design decision that the LOS tool shows the LOS to the GROUND and not to the OBJECT in 3D space. Because a player wants to know if his truppen can hit the tank and not the street beneath it (to be fair: if you target the unit icon you get the LOS to that unit).

Calculating intersections in 3D space is something this game should be excellent at.

[Erwin]

The problem is the unions... For example, The third ammo bearer of the HMG can see the target, but not the HMG gunner:

Young 3rd ammo guy: "Hey Chas, I can see the bleedin target from over here. Let's just move the gun two inches this way."

Gunner: "Oh no you don't my son. Movin' tripods is the prerogative of the Amalgamated Tripod Teamsters Union, movin' it could cause a war stoppage!

3rd guy: "Ok chief, 'ere let me take the gun and use the biped mount."

Tripod teamster: "Oh yeah, that way management could get around the rules as negotiated by the Brotherhood of Tripod movers. That's my blinkin' job that is!"

Sarge/Shop Steward: "Now what we need is a form 234/d-3cv-7 filled out in triplicate so you can get an action item put forward to the committee on whether or not we have LOS to that target, assuming it is a real target and not a figment of your imagination."

3rd Guy: "But, just come here and take look for cryin' out loud."

Gunner: "Now son, you're new 'ere so you gotta learn the ropes, pay yer dues. Should take more than a couple hours to get the paperwork rushed through,"

3rd: "Oh never mind, the target's moved out of sight, now."

Shop Steward: "There we go then. All's well when you follow protocol. Now son, why doncha go brew us all a nice hot cuppa?"

NAFFI guy: "Git out of it, mate! That's MY job!"

[GreenAsJade]

BFC claim that it matters both where the commander's head is, and which way it's facing, because the LOS is traced from his eyes. There was a thread about that...

GaJ

[YankeeDog]

Yes; it's important not to confuse LOS "pre-checks", which are done from the center of the action spots (at various heights, as noted), and the actual spotting checks, which are literally done from the point of the eyes of the 3D model of the pixeltrupp (& through the gunsight, if applicable). The former is a device to reduce the computing resources needed for LOS checks by eliminating the need to do detailed LOS checks for all of the cases where spotting is simply impossible. The latter is the detailed check that actually determines who sees what.

Now, where it gets interesting is how all of this relates to the LOS estimate you see when using the target order. I'm not sure, but I think this LOS check is more similar the former "pre-check", than the latter, detailed "eyeball check".

[thejetset]

I think a really neat way to see the full range of a unit's LOS would be to be able to select "LOS" and click on a unit and have the map only show the action spots that the unit can actually "See". ... Everything else would just appear as grey ... or it would be shaded.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the unit can actually see enemy units hidden inside of action spots in their LOS (such as infantry taking cover in wheat fields or inside brush or hiding behind a wall etc ....) ... But it would at least show the ground, tops of trees, tops of wheat fields etc ... that the unit can see from their current location.

[malfuriouspete]

I think a really neat way to see the full range of a unit's LOS would be to be able to select "LOS" and click on a unit and have the map only show the action spots that the unit can actually "See". ... Everything else would just appear as grey ... or it would be shaded.

It doesn't necessarily mean that the unit can actually see enemy units hidden inside of action spots in their LOS (such as infantry taking cover in wheat fields or inside brush or hiding behind a wall etc ....) ... But it would at least show the ground, tops of trees, tops of wheat fields etc ... that the unit can see from their current location.

I like that idea... instead of drawing the LOS all over the map looking for which spots he can see or not, one click of the LOS button shows you what you see, click it again to turn it off. I'd have to assume that this information is already known in-the game, where a particular unit can see or not.. we just don't know until we draw that damn LOS line...

[Ted]

One thing I'm not to sure about is the colour of the LOS line. So the light blue means that everyone can see the target.. but what about the dark blue/pink like in Gurra's picture? His LOS is dark blue through the wheatfield then becomes pink at the point where he is clicking on.

Is it the same concept as in CMx1 where if you track back only the LOS line you will come to the point which can actually be seen by the squad? ............

I wonder this very same thing but it doesn't seem to be the case.

So exactly what is the point of the dark blue line with varrying pink end line?

Perhaps something could be done where you could target a point and the pink end line could give you a clue at what hight you can see at that point.

i.e. if you target a point and the pink end line is, say, a meter short of the end, you would be able to see something that was a meter in hight at that point.

[hoolaman]

What I think would be handy is target HIGH and target LOW. Low would be pretty much what we have now, but high might target and los trace to the same height as your unit, allowing you to clear obstacles and see if you can see the "space above" a tile.

If you actually target with these options you could have grazing fire parallel to the ground and even maybe target high or low zones on AFVs. You could also fire blind into smoke by targeting a tile closer to your unit.