GerryCMBB Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hello All: Looking at the screenshots it seems the maps are much more open and I am happy about that. I am wondering is that hedge or low bocage in the screenshots? Thanks, Gerry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrailApe Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Well the CW mob had to hump through bocage for a while also, so if any scenarios are in the early part of the campaign, expect bocage. The later operations (Goodwood etc) were in more open country - just right to allow the 88's to come into their own. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 It actually wasn't about "breaking out of bocage" like with the US. For the Commonwealth, generally the further to west you go, the more bocage you will get and the further east you go, the more open fields you ought to get. But it mostly depends on the location. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryCMBB Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 I was thinking specifically in some of the screenshots, like shot #2. What is represented there, a hedge or low bocage? I obviously haven't figured out the difference yet but as far as I remember all scenarios I have played have had bocage but no hedges. So I have little or no practice telling the difference. Thanks, Gerry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Think about what bocage is for.... to shelter the patchwork of small fields against bitter winds coming off the Bay of Biscay, especially in the Norman highlands. The original mounds are spoil (rocks) pulled by the ancient Celts from the fields to allow cultivation of the relatively poor soil. Hedges are then allowed to grow up on top. Starting in the 1500s or earlier, improvements in commerce drove the rural economy from subsistence to export of dairy products and apple brandy, on the Ricardian model. OK, so what? Well as you move inland and downland onto river plains with better soils, winters aren't so harsh and more of the land is given over to seasonal crops. That means bigger fields as medieval strip farming gives over to tenant-farmed manor estates. Fields are still enclosed, but in low rock walls which evolve into lower hedgerows over time. Pastures and orchards still need windbreaks along their western and northern margins to protect their comtents from the aforementioned winter winds, but stands of tall trees make more sense than high bocage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryCMBB Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 I appreciate the answers and I always like to learn more history. But in this case I am asking more about the posted screenshots, like #2, and if we can tell by looking at it if it is hedge or bocage? Or will we not be able to tell until we try and drive through it. I believe there has been discussion on this in the base game. It is not easy to tell the difference. Have they done anything to make the distinction between hedge and low bocage clearer? Gerry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Just which screenshots are you talking about? #2 is not helpful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryCMBB Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hello Sergei: Today Moon provided a link to screenshots from the Release Candidate version. It's #2 out of 49 in that set as an example. Gerry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 1 minute in the scenario editor will answer your question. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hello Sergei: Today Moon provided a link to screenshots from the Release Candidate version. It's #2 out of 49 in that set as an example. Gerry Can't you just provide a link? Grumble... That's low bocage, not hedge. And behind it, low bocage, not hedge. It's easy to tell: hedges are about knee tall, very thin and have fairly even tops. All bocage are thick, uneven and fairly tall. If it's as high as the Churchill hull, then it's likely low bocage. It's not hard. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryCMBB Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 Thanks. Mea culpa on the link. Gerry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You're not going to find many hedges in the Commonwealth campaign, that's for sure. I don't use them for anything other than decoration but I don't know about others. Reason I don't use them? They don't look anything at all like hedges I've seen. They're WAY too short and provide next to no concealment. I hope they get improved when the battles move into Holland because I don't want to use bocage again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undercovergeek Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 You're not going to find many hedges in the Commonwealth campaign, that's for sure. I don't use them for anything other than decoration but I don't know about others. Reason I don't use them? They don't look anything at all like hedges I've seen. They're WAY too short and provide next to no concealment. I hope they get improved when the battles move into Holland because I don't want to use bocage again. +1 - they look comical 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Gerry it took a while for me to get the hang of the differences and as long as designers put gaps in the bocage then sweet but the whole hedge / bocage debate is one which seems to keep popping up. Anyway good answer from Sergi and it is easy when you know how. If you have both on the map you can tell difference by looking straight down at it. Bocage is wider hedge is very thin.... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJFHutch Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hedges look like someone got all the fresh lawn cuttings and arranged them in a line. I don't use them all that often, occasionally when I'm doing scattered bocage I'll use them on the ends of the low bocage stuff but mostly I just leave them out, mostly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Hedge use on maps that I tweak or make is down to ONLY the gated hedge tile as underbrush along and inside treelines. It works great as underbrush(2 large bushes), but I agree is rather lame as an actual hedge. Seems too 50's American suburbs to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 It is interesting how the introduction of Low Bocage has meant the demise of hedges... I wonder what the rational was and did the designer think the effect it would have. Funny how adding an extra type of terrain has such a knock on effect... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryCMBB Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 I have never seen a hedge that is just knee high. Maybe Normandy hedges are different? Is it just Paper Tiger that is not using hedges? If most designers are shunning hedges, that makes a huge difference to tactics as I believe tanks can drive through hedges but not low bocage. Gerry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I use hedges very sparingly -- mostly in the immediate vicinity of settled areas and farmhouses. I also use them occasionally in scattered, scrubby field boundaries as an alternative to solid bocage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Some old discussions worth looking at for those interested in Hedges or Low Bocage... http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=99963 http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=99704 http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=99471 http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=99509 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Since I'm in the camp that says non-gap Low Bocage should be crossable by men and vehicles, albeit at some risk of bogging, I usually stick in a Hedge segment or two on top of a Mud tile to give a crossing point. Like Schultz, I use gapped Hedge mostly for added underbrush (the existing Brush is fairly useless desert scrub) although it doesn't stand in for a thicket (i.e. doesn't block vehicle LOS). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Ferrous Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 My view of Bocage / Hedges :- Bocage and Low Bocage - do a good job of representing these terrain features both graphically and in game play. Shortfalls : Some LOS issues nearby, get Rhinoed too easily and too fast, get blown too cleanly. Graphics of blown gaps could be improved. Wishlist: A new tile of even denser, non-Rhinoable, not instantly blown Extreme Bocage on a 1.5m berm. A cart-sized (2.5m) gap tile in addition to the 'walk through' gap and an optional gated gap of similar size. Hedge - Fails graphically and in game play because the hedge is ludicrously tidy and far too low. Shortfalls : Hardly hinders LOS, and is passed through too freely by infantry and all vehicles. I assume the low elevation is to assist differentiation from low bocage. Wishlist : Make up the current Hedge to a similar height to Low Bocage but with much less restrictions on LOS than the latter. Increase (treble?) pass through times for vehicles and men. A new tile of Bare Hedge (or very thin or worn hedge) with very low LOS restrictions, and another, doing more or less what the current tile does representing a 'domestic trimmed' hedge. Biggest overall deficiency of foliage boundaries : pass through times before or after breaching. Biggest designers' flaw : not drawing in enough 'natural gaps' to cope with current game mechanics. Cheers All 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I have no idea what the hedge is meant to represent in the game. I have never seen a knee-high hedge anywhere in my life. (Bonsai hedges in Japan, perhaps?) I would have prefered something along the lines of low bocage with the ability to for everyone to pass through it. Obviously, that's not as easy to code as it is for me to suggest it though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 +1 to the comments about hedge ridiculouslnessosity. +1 to difficulty of spotting hedge vs. low bocage without scaled reference object nearby to help with height difference. +1 to HOPING that future releases will change hedges to something more manly. Or, at least, something like the hedges I've grown up around. Waist to head high, able to push through with some effort, able to see through if you're adjacent. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 You cam create your desired "Extreme Bocage" with a little work; first create a 1m high embankment using the Elevation editor. To make it impassable use the Heavy Forest tile. To make it passable with difficulty use Light Forest or Mud. Top it off with Bocage or Low Bocage, whichever suits you. Hedges do provide some nominal concealement to units prone and Hiding behind but generally I agree with the criticisms previously expressed. The foliage in this game is about a meter too low in terms of its LoS effects. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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