Typical Ammo Loads

[Erwin]

When going into combat, how much ammo would a WW2 squad carry?

When there are ammo laden vehicles, one can load em up at the start with a LOT and the weight doesn't seem to affect movement (or if it does it's too subtle for me to perceive).

But what would a realistic load be?

I find the default usually too low to get through a battle without getting frighteningly low or reloading.

FWIW: My rule of thumb has been to count up the number of rifle and MG equipped men and calculate an average of approx 200 rounds per man. So, for a 9-man German squad with seven rifles, one MG42 and one MP40, I like to have about 1600 rounds of 7.62mm and about 220-300 rounds of 9mm.

I figure that the riflemen generally don't need more than 50-75 rounds for a battle leaving the rest (1000-1200 rounds) for the MG. And the MP40 gets about 7-10 magazines of 30(?) rounds each.

However, in a campaign, one often ends up with squads, even teams, with 2 or 3 MG42's and/or 2 or 3 MP40's/Stg44's (easy if one does a lot of buddy aid).

So, how many rounds would each of a squad's MG42's usually have (vs the HMG squads which usually have over 2K rounds)?

And assuming you don't simply load up to the max, how many rounds do you calculate for your guys at the start of a battle or campaign?

And do you take all the shrecks and fausts at the start or leave em in the vehicles till you find a need for them?

[YankeeDog]

Difficult to know, really.

The "by the book" combat ammo loads are pretty easy to find; you can find figures for this in many training manuals from the period. The default ammo loads in CMBN seem to reflect these figures pretty well. For example, if you do a bit of squad splitting and deductive math, you can figure out that in the game, the typical U.S. combat infantryman carrying an M1 Garand from a rifle squad (as opposed to a Garand rifleman another type of formation, like an MG team or HQ team, which may be different), carries 88 rounds of .30-'06, or 11 clips. From what I have read, this more or less matches what you'll find on paper in primary sources from the period.

However, first-person accounts WWII infantry combat (or accounts of infantry combat from any period, really), indicate that infantrymen frequently deviate from their "by the book" training with regards to ammo -- of course there's a lot of variation depending on the situation and individual preference, but more often than not, if supply is available infantrymen seem to like to cram extra clips/belts/grenades in any pouch or orifice with a bit of spare room.

So... draw your own conclusions; any "typical" ammo load number is going to be at best a SWAG.

How much encumbrance units should feel from carrying additional ammo is a different, albeit related topic. IIRC, someone did some tests way back in CMSF, and the verdict was that there is at least some fatigue effect to carrying lots of stuff, but my memory is that the effect not is very significant unless the unit is of low fitness and/or executing highly fatiguing movement like trying to run or crawl through difficult terrain. Send a scout team with only default ammo running through marsh, and then send an LMG team with tons of ammo along the same path, and I suspect you'll see a difference. But send the same two teams running across an open field, and the difference will be harder to perceive.

As for how much ammo I load up my guys with, it depends on the situation and the type of unit. For example, I rarely find it necessary to load up rifle squads with additional rifle-caliber ammo. But there are exceptions, such as if the scenario is especially long, or if I expect the unit to be firing more than usual.

However, many HQ teams have low default ammo counts; often less than I consider to be sufficient for self-defense (I try to not get my HQ teams too involved in firefights, but doo-doo happens...). So I usually give them a few more rounds if I can. And SMGs burn through ammo very quickly, so I often will frequently give my rifle squads more SMG ammo if it's available, especially if I expect significant amounts of combat at close range -- .45 cal for the Thompson is particularly valuable commodity, I find.

[Erwin]

Thanks YD, but that still leaves most of my questions unanswered re what do we players assess as "enuff ammo" and what would be carried if battle is known to be imminent.

I heard of (modern) soldiers loading up as much as 400 rounds each - of course they wouldn't be carrying their other stuff.

[YankeeDog]

I heard of (modern) soldiers loading up as much as 400 rounds each - of course they wouldn't be carrying their other stuff.

Bear in mind that (a) modern combat calibers like 5.56mm NATO are A LOT lighter than calibers like .30-'06 & 7.92mm that made up most of a WWII infantry squad's load, and ( modern assault rifles also burn through ammo a lot more quickly than a Garand or Kar98 does. The amount of lead a modern U.S. infantry squad can put downrange is pretty impressive.

As for hard figures, like I said, if you're looking for a "historically realistic" ammo figures for an infantry squad about to enter combat, I think you're shooting at smoke as there's no real way of gathering reliable hard evidence -- you can find plenty of anecdotes, but these aren't really a source of reliable data. If you want an absolutely wild guess from me, I'd say that in an average combat situation, a typical WWII rifle squad carried somewhere between 20-50% more ammo than their "stock" load if they could get their hands on it.

As for what I do in-game, as I mentioned, regardless of whether I'm playing U.S. or German, I don't usually distribute more rifle-caliber ammo to rifle squads unless there are extenuating circumstances. I will sometimes give U.S. rifle squads an extra couple of 'zook rounds if I have them to spare -- the 3-4 they usually carry by default get used up pretty quickly if they get into a situation where the 'zook is useful. Similarly, if I have them, I'll dole out extra 'fausts to German squads at the start of a scenario, prioritizing units I think are most likely to get close to enemy armor. Generally, I find that if you need an infantry AT weapon, you need it NOW, and there's usually not enough time to send a team back to the halftrack to get one.

I do usually give HQ teams some additional ammo if I have it -- ideally, about enough to bring their loads up to par with the rifle squads on a per-man basis. For example. soldiers in U.S. HQ teams carrying an M1 carbine usually carry 45 rounds of .30 carbine ammo each, which they can use up in about 2 minutes if they get into a hot firefight -- I'll usually up this to 95 rounds if I can.

And if I have extra SMG ammo, I definitely dole this out, prioritizing the rifle squads most likely to get into close combat first. I'll give U.S. rifle squads 300-400 rounds of .45 ACP ammo per Thompson, if I have it (which I usually don't -- trucks and jeeps don't carry as much .45 ammo as they do other calibers, and once you distribute it amongst all your rifle squads, it's not much on a per-squad basis).

I don't think I've ever loaded MMG/HMG teams with additional ammo. Between what the MG team carries, and what their associated ammo bearer team(s) carry, they always seem to have plenty.

[Wreck]

I don't know how much ammo men carried in history.

My rule of thumb is 1000 rounds for German squads (MG42s can use it), somewhat less for Americans. It does depend on the scenario. Usually with a longer scenario you need a bit more with some squads, but on the other hand walking a squad back to your vehicles (and/or moving one up) doesn't take that much time. In a pinch, you can send your assault team back for more ammo. Then you merge/split again, and most of the ammo stays with the machinegun.

Ditto YankeeDog on SMG ammo -- take extra.

As for rockets and launchers: it varies a lot. If the scenario seems to indicate a good chance for tanks or bunkers, I assign them. And panzerfausts I always take, since infantry do not waste them shooting at a distance. Since pixeltruppen are trigger-happy when it comes to bazookas (and panzershrecks), for those I tend to load up my teams with only a few rockets per tube. Then if they waste them, they can go back to the rear and reload.

[Erwin]

My hypothesis is that if you're defending and probably not moving a lot you would load up with as much as possible cos there may not be opportunity to get resupply. If you're attacking and have the luxury of time then yes, it's kinda fun to get a resupply chain going. (I usually use 2-man scout or AT teams to go get the ammo.)

I prefer playing Germans and wiping out the Amis, so my examples above are what I have been loading with for German squads. In the absence of authoritative knowledge my rule of thumb is 1000 rounds for the squad's MG42 plus 50-75 rounds for each rifleman, and 210-300 9mm for the MP40. So, that's about 180-200 rounds per man in a 9 man squad - seems reasonable. I have yet to see a way to resupply the StG44. (Any transports have ammo for that?)

[Wreck]

Erwin, StG44 ammo is found only in bunkers.

[Sgt Schultz]

I go by time limit.

Anything over 45 minutes needs Hannomag ammo support for either side. One per company, usually directly attached to Company HQ.

Mortar ammo bearers will be out of work by the time infantry usually need to re-up. This is a good reason to attach each on-map mortar to a different platoon. Auto-share activates with all assigned battle buddies once the ammo trip has been made.

Empty Ami 60mm mortar Teams work well too. Mobile, and already organic to almost every Ami formation.

No more sending sending a valuable front-line asset on an ammo run.

[Erwin]

Not too useful if you only need bullets. That would mean the "ammo team" would have to be adjacent to the shooting unit at all times (if the team was not part of the squad).

[LukeFF]

This page is a nice help for U.S. Infantry combat loads:

http://www.45thdivision.org/Pictures/General_Knowlege/combatload.htm

[LukeFF]

Oh, and as for the Germans, the standard ammo load for K98 riflemen was two sets of ammo pouches that held 45 rounds each, for a total of 90 rounds. G43 riflemen would have one ammo pouch with ammo on stripper clips, plus 3 10-round magazines, for a total of 75 rounds.

Of course, as was mentioned above, this is what the manuals/TOE called for, so variation in those numbers in the field certainly did occur.

[Erwin]

Thanks Luke that was useful. I presume however that for the Germans at least every man would carry extra ammo for the MG34/42.

So my basic load out for my guys (when there is extra ammo at the start) is 50-75 rounds for each rifleman and each carries another 100+ for the MG. Seems like a reasonable amount of weight and one can get through most battles with little/no need for resupply.

I just wondered ow other players approach this sort of calculation is all.

[General Jack Ripper]

When I am starting a single battle I usually don't load up on any extra ammo, unless I am on the defensive. It seems all to easy to load up my troops with all manner of extra ammo and explosives, only to have a squad take a few casualties, and end up losing that extra ammo. Once a squad gets down to about 30% of their initial loadout, I will make an ammo run. The same goes for rockets and rifle grenades. If a team starts with an AT rocket already attached, I'll give them a couple of rockets, but leave the rest behind.

On the defensive, I will pass out all of the extra ammo evenly among all of my squads. Personally I am of the opinion that there is no attack so large or fierce that cannot be stopped with the application of sufficient firepower.

On campaign, things are different. With usually limited resupply of ammo in between missions, I tend to be very stingy with my ammo supply. I always have that old feeling, "but I might need it later". Which prevents me from using my mortars and rockets to full effect. The only time I will expend the maximum amount of ammo available from supporting assets is if they are assigned for just one mission. I mean, if you get some air support in a mission, you might as well use it up, because he probably won't be here tomorrow.

Anyway, that's my five cents on the topic. I would have put in two cents, but honestly, who wants just two pennies anyway?

[Erwin]

Re ammo resupply in Campaigns, I noticed that when the troops do not receive resupply, the vehicles often are full, so it tends to make one want to load up b4 the end of the scenario so they have ammo for the next battle... and the vehicles will often be filled up for the next scenario.

[LukeFF]

Thanks Luke that was useful. I presume however that for the Germans at least every man would carry extra ammo for the MG34/42.

Yes, I believe that is what was the case. Most likely they carried ammo for the squad MGs in 100-200 round ammo cans.

[Michael Emrys]

Yes, I believe that is what was the case. Most likely they carried ammo for the squad MGs in 100-200 round ammo cans.

Many, many photos show them swathed in belted ammo for the MG. This seems to be the case for the squad LMG as much if not more than for the crew served HMG. It is the latter that we see carrying an ammo can in each hand.

Michael

[LukeFF]

Many, many photos show them swathed in belted ammo for the MG. This seems to be the case for the squad LMG as much if not more than for the crew served HMG. It is the latter that we see carrying an ammo can in each hand.

Ah, OK. Thanks for the clarification!

[JasonC]

The amount of ammo that can be man-packed into combat up to the pointy end is very limited. The reason is everyone already has way too much to carry, so much so that they need to drop much of it to fight.

The basic loads of around 100 rounds per rifleman weigh about 7 lbs, which added to their personal rifle, grenades etc puts their weapon load at around 25 pounds. Everyone in any sort of crew is carrying much more than this - a 20 lbs BAR or LMG, or a 30 lb MMG or 15 lb tripod, or a similar weight piece of a mortar, or a bazooka, or rounds for bazookas or a mortar, etc.

You can maybe double the load, in rounds, for the plain riflemen without other jobs, in the form of ammo for their MGs or the BAR man or a mortar. That is about it. Dedicated ammo carriers in heavy MG teams might carry 200 rounds extra instead of 100 - for a couple of guys only, per gun. This means each rifle in combat may have 75-100 rounds available, and each LMG/SAW might have 1000 to 1500. Heavy MG teams meant to move might manage several thousand, and emplaced might get up to 3000 rounds or so.

This emphatically does not mean they have that much to fire off in one half-hour firefight. In heavy infantry combat in the hedgerows, a typical US infantry company got 2 basic loads in a week of combat. The supply described has to last 3 or 4 days, not 30 or 40 minutes.

Now compare the cyclic fire rates of MGs. 450 per minute on the low end, and 1500 per minute on the high end for the MG42. This means LMGs and SAWs go into action with about as many *seconds* of fire as the rifles have individual bullets, and get to use one second of fire about the same way, to shoot at one exposed and spotted target. Then those 60 to 120 seconds of fire or individual bullets get to be husbanded through several days of action.

The ratio of time elapsing on the clock to time with a trigger depressed is 1500 to 4500 to 1.

Hosing down everything in sight continually doesn't happen. They'd all be bone dry in a matter of minutes if it did - and the enemy would just go heads-down for those couple of minutes, safe as houses, and free as a bird afterward. Instead, fire has to be nursed along to deploy it into only those particular seconds in which the enemy is most exposed.

Next notice that the factor between shots fired and anything hit is about that big again. This one is simple - count the men down and count the rounds expended and divide. 3000 to 1 counts as high effectiveness - long term, 10000 is more like normal.

Notice, this means a plain rifleman expending his 2 loads over a week still hasn't come close to hitting anything on average. He has climbed up to the 1-3% chance of having hit something, more like.

Judge the typical exposure of the enemy he encounters accordingly...

FWIW...

[Erwin]

Useful post. Thanks, Jason.

[YankeeDog]

I think everything that Jason says is true and very important to keep in mind when considering the "Realism" of what you see when playing CM regarding ammo usage in CM.

At the same time, it's not at all difficult to find engagements in which infantrymen burned off ammunition very quickly in a short amount of time, going through an entire "standard load" and then some. Major (Then Lt.) Winters had to send runners back to get more ammo during the famous assault on the guns at Brecourt Manor. After the famous Shermans vs. Tigers "knife fight" engagement at Cecina in Italy, the supporting U.S. infantrymen involved were virtually out of ammo, so they borrowed a couple of belts of 30-'.06 ammo from a tank and scrounged the field for en-bloc clips to re-load in order to refresh the supply for their Garands. Etc.

That old cliche about war being endless hours of boredom interspersed with a few moments of sheer terror holds here. Even in a combat zone, Infantrymen spend far more time marching, digging foxholes, hiding in said foxhole taking cover from harassing artillery fire, out on inconclusive patrols with no significant engagement etc. than they do in firefights. And even when there is small arms engagement, a lot of it is inconclusive, brief exchanges of fire. In CM, we don't play the engagement where a U.S. patrol receives a few bursts of MG fire, fires back a few rounds of rifle fire to cover withdrawal, and then heads back to friendly lines to report contact.

A G.I. carrying a Garand might well, on average, go through 2 basic loads of ammo/week. But he might use up one of those loads all within an hour during an important engagement, and then use the rest in dribs and drabs during smaller, inconclusive engagements over the rest of the week.

To draw a sports comparison, if CM were modeling soccer games rather than ground combat, CM scenarios would only represent what you see on the highlight reel. Trying to draw conclusions about ammo usage in general based on CM scenarios is like trying to draw conclusions about how many threats on goal there are during a typical 90 minute soccer game, based on watching only the highlight reel.

[Erwin]

However, we do know and are told that we are about to go into imminent battle. CM games all represent that high intensity action, not the weeks of boredom. So, I consider that my question re how much ammo would a formation or unit take knowing they were about to attack has validity.

[Mehlsack]

There is an interesting report of a German instructor regarding the ammo load for attacking when fast resupply would not be possible. (Waibel, Swiss military journal 112/1947).

He pointed out that the ammo stock for the lMG would be very important and recommended to assign 2 ammo bearers with K98 to the lMG. Every bearer had to carry 2 ammo cans with overall 500-600 rounds. The other men in the squad should hang 3 belts (100 rounds each) round the neck.

Therefore, in a 9-head-squad could be available circa 3000 rounds just for the lMG. On top of that every man had to take the ammo for his personal weapon (minimum 65 rounds for K98, 192 for MP40, aso), hand grenades and also explosives/mines.

[Erwin]

Useful info. Thanks... It makes sense that troops would take as much ammo for their MG's as they could.

[JasonC]

Sorry, but a "should" recommendation is not an "actually happened" regular practice.

Yes 2 ammo bearers for an MG would be standard, and they might carry 250 rounds apiece in ammo cans. Sometimes for an LMG specifically, it might be only one guy so designated, but in an HMG team you'd normally have 2-3. Remember many squads had 2 LMGs each, and squads in action are not parade ground strength, numerically speaking.

Next on bandolier belts, ammo for the MG42s came in 50 round belts, which could be linked into 100 rounds or more obviously. But 100 rounds would be the normal amount "another" member of the squad might have bandoliered - and that would be when he was told off to support the LMG. Remember other members of the squad have jobs like - squad leading NCO, unlikely to be loaded down with ammo; carrying field tools (for entrenching or cutting wire, rolls of sandbags), other weapons (panzerfausts, bags of hand grenades, rounds for a platoon-attached 81mm mortar, etc), and some would be deliberately left "light" for other roles (message runner, scout, sniper-sharpshooter, an SMG man with his own 9mm mags, etc).

3000 rounds per MG is more like what you can manage with HMG teams, not every squad SAW. 1500 is more typical for the latter. About a third of that might be boxed ammo carried by the ammo carriers (250 round belts layered into a metal ammo can, that weighs about 20 lbs BTW and is entirely awkward to run with), another sixth by the gunner and AG in bandolier form or hanging from the gun (remember the AG is also carrying a personal weapon and the spare barrel bag and toolkit), with the rest distributed around the squad in bandoliers among the squad members without other major combat loads.

All of which the gun itself can throw in "one handful" of minutes - and typically gets to last several days, instead.

So the notion that just by having lots of people carry extra you can fire an MG as much as you like, it just false. Never happens. None of the typical logistics links could take the strain, especially the last man-packed one out to the tip of the spear.

[LongLeftFlank]

These rules are for infantry on the attack or on the move though, ja? A prepared defensive position would typically keep more ammo on hand, assuming that there was time to bring it up.

BTW, one weakness of the CMBN HMG teams is that as the team takes casualties (e.g. those pesky ubermortars!), the ammo supply is reduced sharply. That's true even if the position hasn't moved. So you can truncate the firepower of a machine gun nest by picking off the riflemen. Another good reason to add a static "ammo supply" unit (say 1k rounds) that never does anything but HIDE but will "share" ammo with nearby units using the game mechanism.