Typical Ammo Loads

[Mehlsack]

@ JasonC

don't get me wrong. The depicted ammo load was not a standard practice but was exercised at assault bataillons for a well prepared assault of entrenched positions. I mentioned this example to give a impression what amount of ammo was regarded as manageable during an attack. With this load a sufficient mobility was kept especially as the ammo often was consumed quickly.

Even the ammo bearers kept their ability to fire a rifle by connecting the two ammo cans with a strap and hanging them over the shoulder, one on the back and the other on the chest. The ammo belts should get fixed with a waist belt too.

Imo your verdict ("happend never") is a little bit to hasty. Above all it is not my notion but an experience report of a German assault regiment (Sturmregiment) in 1943. It is obvious to me that the Wehrmacht had a serious shortage of infantry ammo but for well prepared assaults an adequate supply was given.

In CMBN a single man can carry ca. 3000 rounds and still run. THAT is too much for sure! So the quoted report gives a impression what should be regarded as the upper limit of ammo load for attacking squads in the game. None of us is an eye witness of WW2, so this report gives a valuable pointer. I would not load up every squad like this but it should not be condemned as absolutely unhistoric.

[JasonC]

I don't think any assault detachment ever went into action with heavier ammo loads than the US airborne jumped with into Normandy. They expected the following to last for days in action, potentially cut off from the rest of the army. They took all they thought they could actually carry around, even supplementing what the men could individually carry with carts for extra MG ammo and mortar rounds. Here is what they had -

MI- 30-06 rifle: Rounds per weapon: 136, jumped on individual. (128 in Air Corps pockets, 4 clips per pocket), 1-8 rnd. clip in rifle, hand, or jumpsuit pocket (55% ball, 40% AP, 5% tracer. Rifle belt and one bandolier may be used in lieu of the above. 60 Riflemen per company will jump with 1 belt of LMG ammunition (250 rounds); this may be used in M-1 rifles if the situation warrants. note from webmaster:-the "Air Corps pockets" were rectangular belt pouches, with a pointed flap secured by a press-a-dot snap. These were discontinued in the 101st after Normandy. The military term "ball" ammo means a lead projectile, completely covered with a copper jacket.

Carbine: Rounds per weapon: 175, jumped on individual. 160 in 2 Air Corps pockets (2 clips and one box per pocket), 15 in hand (1 clip) or jumpsuit pocket (100% ball).

Thompson SMG: Rounds per weapon:300, Jumped on individual. 14 (20 rnd) clips in jump suit pockets or M6 carrying bag, 1 clip in gun, hand, or jumpsuit pocket.

Pistol M1911A1: Rounds per weapon: 21, jumped on individual. 2 clips in pouch, one clip in pistol (100% ball, for pistol and TSMG).

'03 Rifle: Rounds per weapon: 145, jumped on individual. 140 in four Air Corps pockets (7 clips per pocket), 1 5 rnd. clip in rifle, hand, or jumpsuit pocket. The '03 rifle may not be used if launcher for M-1 rifle is issued. It is now a superimposed weapon and if jumped will have to supplant the primary weapon of the man jumping it.

'03 Grenades: 10, jumped on individual 5 in each of 2 M6 carrying bags (6 fragmentation, 4 A.T.) (note, these are rifle grenades for the squad level bolt action 1903 model rifle).

Hand Grenades: 4, Jumped on individual. 4 Grenades in jumpsuit pockets (if M6 carrying bag is used, 6 can be carried.)

Rocket Launcher: Rounds per weapon: 12, to be jumped on individual. l round per man; collected and carried, 6 in each of 2 Infantry packs collected by crew after jump. The folding launcher may be issued, and can be jumped. Launchers may be dropped in bundles: if so, ammunition will be dropped in bundle.

60mm mortar: Rounds per weapon: 80, each mortar jumped on 3 men. 14 riflemen jump with 1 round each. 3 mortar squad members jump with 4 each in M6 bag; 54 dropped in bundles and carried in cart (4 carts per company).

81mm mortar: Rounds per weapon: 54, dropped in bundle;carried by 3 men. 30 rounds in cart, plus 6 rounds on each of 4 men, or 5 rounds on 4 men and 4 rounds on 1. (cart and all rounds dropped in bundle). 80% H.E. light, 20% White Phosphorus.

LMG Browning M1919-A4: rounds per weapon: 3250, jumped on 2 individuals. In LMG platoon, 2,000 rounds dropped in bundle and carried on 81mm mortar cart, or by S-4. 1,250 rounds jumped on men. (80% A.P. and 20% tracer). A.P.=Armor-Piercing (steel cored projectile with copper jacket). 60 riflemen in each company jump with 1 belt of LMG ammunition, as indicated in M-1 rifle listing.

Reserve LMG: rounds per weapon: 6,250, dropped in bundle

The memo concludes;"These ammunition loads are considered to be all that can be carried away from field, regardless of whether machine-guns, 60mm mortars, rocket launchers, or '03 rifles are jumped on the individual or dropped in equipment bundles."

I'd call that outlier high on what can be packed around the battlefield, and it had to last days in action without resupply.

Also note the division between rounds on the men and rounds in bundles and transported by carts, for the MGs. The portion the men could carry was about the limit per gun brought into tactical action when maneuver the gun itself into contact; the rest would be available per gun for position defense roles and the like. Also note the number of men per company whose personal loads were light enough to weigh them down with bandoliers of MG ammo - 60 per company, nothing like all of them.

FWIW...

[Erwin]

I wonder why BF allows squads and even small teams to collect so much ammo?

My rule of thumb for the German squads has been to calculate 400 rounds for each MG42, maybe less if it's an MG34, and about 200-250 9mm rounds for each MP40, and only 50 rounds per rifleman. so if a sqaud has one MP40, 2xMG42, and 5 rifles that would be a total of (at least) 1050x7.62 rounds and about 250x9mm. Because one usually has to take 500 rounds at a time from a transport in the game, my squads will end up with closer to 1300-1400 rounds of 7.62mm. So, about 200 rounds average per rifle/MG soldier.

Maybe 25% of the units may still have to go and get more ammo if shooting a lot, but the above load will generally be enuff to get most of the way thru a scenario.

BTW: Is there some rational reason why the StG44 ammo is only available in bunkers btw? Having 7.62K ammo in trucks and halftracks etc. is on my "wish list".

[akd]

I don't think any assault detachment ever went into action with heavier ammo loads than the US airborne jumped with into Normandy.

Pure speculation.

Also note the number of men per company whose personal loads were light enough to weigh them down with bandoliers of MG ammo - 60 per company, nothing like all of them.

FWIW...

60 per company would allow for every pure rifleman in the parachute rifle squad to be carrying belted ammo.

[JasonC]

On the first, hardly.

On the second, approximately true (if e.g. runners are excluded and the like), but it is just under half the actual manpower strength of the company. The rest all have other things to carry or to do - mortars and their ammo, the MGs themselves, radios, and the command teams at each level (company, platoon, and squad).

[JonS]

However, first-person accounts WWII infantry combat (or accounts of infantry combat from any period, really), indicate that infantrymen frequently deviate from their "by the book" training with regards to ammo -- of course there's a lot of variation depending on the situation and individual preference, but more often than not, if supply is available infantrymen seem to like to cram extra clips/belts/grenades in any pouch or orifice with a bit of spare room.

One thing I've noticed in combat photos from WWII - and other wars - is how light riflemen often make themselves. It's not unusual to find photos in which the subject has his weapon, a helmet, boots and a uniform, and apparently not much else. For example, there is the CMBN scen-load screen with the group of GIs in a town, with one of them firing up (or at least aiming up there) at a window. The guys in that photo are carrying practically nothing.

Similarly, these guys on Iwo Jima

or these ones

Don't seem to be too concerned with carrying everything and the kitchen sink with them everywhere.

Some of these guys

are pretty heavily loaded, but quite a few look like they've just nipped out to get the morning paper.

At least these guys

have their webbing on, but they don't appear to be ridiculously encumbered.

My guess is that soldiers strip off extraneous claggage at almost any opportunity, and create little mini caches of their stuff. The expectation is that they won't be advancing far - a few fields or a few hundred metres - and they'll be able to come back for it later, or send one man back to portage a whole section's 'stuff' forward. In the meantime, they just carry their weapon, maybe a little water, a bit of chocolate stuffed in a hip pocket, and just a few clips of ammo stuffed in other pockets. In the short term agility, speed, and reduced fatigue are more important than having everything available all the time.

The caveats:

* I haven't done any rigorous analysis to come to this conclusion, it's just an impression I've come to over many years and many photos.

* Photos are a somewhat unreliable source. For one thing, finding photos taken of guys in combat, rather than of guys in "combat" is tricky. Several of the photos above are obviously not taken in combat, even if they're not staged. Also, photos tend to be taken of things that are interesting rahter than run of the mill.

Jon

[LongLeftFlank]

From this 1947 paper by Battalion S-3, 3/137th Infantry:

During the course of the day's fighting all of the battalion staff had occasion to remark of the large amount of individual and crew equipment strewn about the battle position. Everything from meat cans to machine guns. It should be recalled here that this was a new unit in combat, undergoing their first baptism of fire, and of course had entered battle carrying full equipment, including such items as signal panels, extra shoestrings, etc. However, in all fairness to members of the battalion, a large part of this equipment resulted from casualties. When a man was wounded, and started for the rear he would drop all of his equipment, further the aid men would relieve a man of all his equipment prior to carrying him out.

It was found that a resupply of rations and small arms ammunition was not required. All companies reporting sufficient rations for the next day. All reporting that the men had not eaten during the confusion and excitement of their first day in battle. The status of small arms ammunition was explained by reason of the men not firing until they had a target to shoot at, and so very few targets had been seen during the day.

This doesn't speak specifically to ammo loads of course, and this was a green outfit. But this is just one of numerous anecdotes regarding the tendency of US soldiers particularly to leave a trail of discarded gear in their wake. I was also browsing a site where some French guys are excavating the Hill 108 battleground and finding all kinds of gear everywhere.

[c3k]

I don't think any assault detachment ever went into action with heavier ammo loads than the US airborne jumped with into Normandy. They expected the following to last for days in action, potentially cut off from the rest of the army. They took all they thought they could actually carry around, even supplementing what the men could individually carry with carts for extra MG ammo and mortar rounds. Here is what they had -

MI- 30-06 rifle: Rounds per weapon: 136, jumped on individual. (128 in Air Corps pockets, 4 clips per pocket), 1-8 rnd. clip in rifle, hand, or jumpsuit pocket (55% ball, 40% AP, 5% tracer. Rifle belt and one bandolier may be used in lieu of the above. 60 Riflemen per company will jump with 1 belt of LMG ammunition (250 rounds); this may be used in M-1 rifles if the situation warrants. note from webmaster:-the "Air Corps pockets" were rectangular belt pouches, with a pointed flap secured by a press-a-dot snap. These were discontinued in the 101st after Normandy. The military term "ball" ammo means a lead projectile, completely covered with a copper jacket.

Carbine: Rounds per weapon: 175, jumped on individual. 160 in 2 Air Corps pockets (2 clips and one box per pocket), 15 in hand (1 clip) or jumpsuit pocket (100% ball).

Thompson SMG: Rounds per weapon:300, Jumped on individual. 14 (20 rnd) clips in jump suit pockets or M6 carrying bag, 1 clip in gun, hand, or jumpsuit pocket.

Pistol M1911A1: Rounds per weapon: 21, jumped on individual. 2 clips in pouch, one clip in pistol (100% ball, for pistol and TSMG).

'03 Rifle: Rounds per weapon: 145, jumped on individual. 140 in four Air Corps pockets (7 clips per pocket), 1 5 rnd. clip in rifle, hand, or jumpsuit pocket. The '03 rifle may not be used if launcher for M-1 rifle is issued. It is now a superimposed weapon and if jumped will have to supplant the primary weapon of the man jumping it.

'03 Grenades: 10, jumped on individual 5 in each of 2 M6 carrying bags (6 fragmentation, 4 A.T.) (note, these are rifle grenades for the squad level bolt action 1903 model rifle).

Hand Grenades: 4, Jumped on individual. 4 Grenades in jumpsuit pockets (if M6 carrying bag is used, 6 can be carried.)

Rocket Launcher: Rounds per weapon: 12, to be jumped on individual. l round per man; collected and carried, 6 in each of 2 Infantry packs collected by crew after jump. The folding launcher may be issued, and can be jumped. Launchers may be dropped in bundles: if so, ammunition will be dropped in bundle.

60mm mortar: Rounds per weapon: 80, each mortar jumped on 3 men. 14 riflemen jump with 1 round each. 3 mortar squad members jump with 4 each in M6 bag; 54 dropped in bundles and carried in cart (4 carts per company).

81mm mortar: Rounds per weapon: 54, dropped in bundle;carried by 3 men. 30 rounds in cart, plus 6 rounds on each of 4 men, or 5 rounds on 4 men and 4 rounds on 1. (cart and all rounds dropped in bundle). 80% H.E. light, 20% White Phosphorus.

LMG Browning M1919-A4: rounds per weapon: 3250, jumped on 2 individuals. In LMG platoon, 2,000 rounds dropped in bundle and carried on 81mm mortar cart, or by S-4. 1,250 rounds jumped on men. (80% A.P. and 20% tracer). A.P.=Armor-Piercing (steel cored projectile with copper jacket). 60 riflemen in each company jump with 1 belt of LMG ammunition, as indicated in M-1 rifle listing.

Reserve LMG: rounds per weapon: 6,250, dropped in bundle

The memo concludes;"These ammunition loads are considered to be all that can be carried away from field, regardless of whether machine-guns, 60mm mortars, rocket launchers, or '03 rifles are jumped on the individual or dropped in equipment bundles."

I'd call that outlier high on what can be packed around the battlefield, and it had to last days in action without resupply.

Also note the division between rounds on the men and rounds in bundles and transported by carts, for the MGs. The portion the men could carry was about the limit per gun brought into tactical action when maneuver the gun itself into contact; the rest would be available per gun for position defense roles and the like. Also note the number of men per company whose personal loads were light enough to weigh them down with bandoliers of MG ammo - 60 per company, nothing like all of them.

FWIW...

Your initial assumption is flawed. Yes, this very well could be the AMMUNITION carried by these men. However, as you stated, they were expected to survive and fight for DAYS while they were cut off behind enemy lines. Therefore, the ammo had to share the weight allowance with, off the top of my head: main parachute, spare parachute, food, water, comm gear, other mission odds and ends.

The parachutes were bulky and heavy. I don't know how much water they carried into battle. Likewise, food.

This need to carry every item needed for several days is a heavier burden than a unit going forward to assault an objective.

Ken

[YankeeDog]

One thing I've noticed in combat photos from WWII - and other wars - is how light riflemen often make themselves....

My guess is that soldiers strip off extraneous claggage at almost any opportunity, and create little mini caches of their stuff. The expectation is that they won't be advancing far - a few fields or a few hundred metres - and they'll be able to come back for it later, or send one man back to portage a whole section's 'stuff' forward. In the meantime, they just carry their weapon, maybe a little water, a bit of chocolate stuffed in a hip pocket, and just a few clips of ammo stuffed in other pockets. In the short term agility, speed, and reduced fatigue are more important than having everything available all the time.

The caveats:

* I haven't done any rigorous analysis to come to this conclusion, it's just an impression I've come to over many years and many photos.

* Photos are a somewhat unreliable source. For one thing, finding photos taken of guys in combat, rather than of guys in "combat" is tricky. Several of the photos above are obviously not taken in combat, even if they're not staged. Also, photos tend to be taken of things that are interesting rahter than run of the mill.

Jon

Yes; I have noticed this too. While it's hard to say definitively, I think your SWAG is probably right - that a lot of the gear (including extra ammo) that soldiers carry on the march gets dropped off at some convenient location prior to an expected fire and maneuver situation, with the expectation that it can be retrieved later. I have read some accounts that describe exactly this -- stripping down to combat essentials prior to an assault. But how common it was, and exactly what the soldiers tended to leave behind, and what they carried with them is hard to say...

Dropping off your toiletries kit, tomorrow's rations, and your extra socks prior to running around and getting shot at certainly makes sense. Ditching the extra bandolier of ammo you're carrying might make sense, too, depending on the situation.

This part of why I would really like to see a dedicated non-vehicle/bunker ammo cache added to CMBN. Sure, a scenario designer can fudge such a thing by putting a bunker in a rear area location where it can't fire on the enemy, or a pen a vehicle in with low walls so it can't move. But overall, it would be a nice addition to the game to have an actual unit, maybe represented graphically by a small stack of ammo cans & bandoliers in a foxhole er sumfink, that could represent a Company or Battalion ammo resupply point.

[Sgt Schultz]

This part of why I would really like to see a dedicated non-vehicle/bunker ammo cache added to CMBN. Sure, a scenario designer can fudge such a thing by putting a bunker in a rear area location where it can't fire on the enemy, or a pen a vehicle in with low walls so it can't move. But overall, it would be a nice addition to the game to have an actual unit, maybe represented graphically by a small stack of ammo cans & bandoliers in a foxhole er sumfink, that could represent a Company or Battalion ammo resupply point.

+1

I too would like, and have also suggested, ammo crates in the purchase screen. One crate takes up 2-4 slots in a vehicle or bunker. Number or rounds per crate dictated by caliber. 150mm IG gets 4 rounds, and all others scale up accordingly. As it is now, a truck full of 81mm ammo can still haul a full load of troops as well. minor glitch.

---

I am ashamed to say I assumed that full ammo at purchase meant all you could carry. My bad. Facepalm.

Now I will load up every time before setting out instead of drawing folks off the line during a firefight.

If they move slower so be it.

[YankeeDog]

I too would like, and have also suggested, ammo crates in the purchase screen. One crate takes up 2-4 slots in a vehicle or bunker. Number or rounds per crate dictated by caliber. 150mm IG gets 4 rounds, and all others scale up accordingly. As it is now, a truck full of 81mm ammo can still haul a full load of troops as well. minor glitch.

I'm not sure how necessary this really is... don't know about the German Opel, but there's a lot of space in the back of a 6x6 Studebaker; you probably could fit a fair amount of 81mm shells under the bench seats and such, and still carry the full complement of passengers.

Obviously, if the truck were really loaded up with a substantial amount of large ammo (such as the 150mm you mention), at some point passenger capacity would suffer. But you'd have to be carrying a lot.

[Sgt Schultz]

Well, I want the crates for the ammo, not to make the passenger space correct.

There are quite a few support weapons that have low ammo counts. If a battle goes long and the weapon is not killed, it would be nice to have a way to get just a few more rounds in that PaK75.

More medium mortar ammo especially for on-map assets. Give the bearers something to bear later on in the battle. Make 'em hump the ammo from the crate in the bunker to the tube.

[JonS]

Here's another good example.

And this one is definately a combat photo. This photo has been described as 'possibly the closest we will ever come to seeing a man win the VC.'

Currie, with the revolver on the left, and the guy next to him are tankies. Given that, Currie is probably carrying more than you'd expect. But the two blokes on the right, with the SMLEs, don't appear to have anything except their rifles.

[pagskier]

Some more pics of inf. going in combat:

German ones near Rots going for the assault,

So far for direct assault, as I know they were just taking everything essential.

From what I read, a maximum of grenade, support weapon ammo and their own ammo.

The rest was carried I think on the motorized vehicule as bren carriers and other vehicules.

I might be wrong there, it's more of a question than an affirmation

[Mehlsack]

These pictures show that in fact not everybody in the squad was loaded up. It is likely that the squad/fireteam leaders did not go like pack donkeys. All the other man were used to carry alot if it was badly needed. Even 3x100 belts were not uncommon as you can see.

Maybe this was essentialy especially in the wehrmacht because of the ammo-burning MG42 and an aggressiv tactical doctrine.

[LukeFF]

And from the Eastern Front...

[JasonC]

Mehlsack - notice how often the MGs themselves are present in photos with belted ammo carried bandolier style. These are typically the members of the MG team itself, the gunner, AG-loader, and perhaps 1-2 additional ammo men (who may have 250 round boxed ammo as well). Every rifleman available - not so much.

On what the paras carried into Normandy, the point is they are an outlier in total load, in mission priority, in expected time away from resupply, in prior lack of engagement using up supplies, in logistical availability of everything they could carry, etc. Meaning the *only* limit they faced was the tactical mobility issue of what they could physically carry without impairing their tactical abilities over-much. They were also picked men in excellent shape, entirely fresh, etc.

Compare a unit with 30% overaged reservists, in a less important sector, that has been in the line for weeks, off any major resupply route, supplied by horse wagon from the nearest rail-side depot - etc etc. You will not find ammo as abundant, because the logistic links are strained, the men less capable, the need less urgent, a dozen different factors all making for less ammo per man carried into action.

I second the comments about men going into action light, dropping packs before contact whenever possible. Combat is exhausting enough as is, and only items of the highest priority are taken. Yes ammo can be one of those highest priority items - but within tactical reason, not for its own sake or just as a precaution.

One of the posts mentions in passing the relevant contemporary diagnosis of observed low ammo expenditure. The men do not fire until they actually see a target - and they see precious little. Why do they see so little? Because only portions of the two opposing forces brush into LOS of each other; because longer ranged and heavier weapons do so much of the firing; because those hit by that heavier fire so frequently get out of the way of it, and in the process break contact with enemy maneuver element LOS; because the crusts that do get into LOS tend to die rapidly with a life expectancy in minutes if not seconds; because even very modest losses out of the entire engaged forces, from those longer ranged heavier weapons and those engaged "crusts" brushing into LOS briefly and fatally, are quite sufficient to convince everyone else involved, on one side at least if not both, that they would rather be elsewhere.

Here is what doesn't happen - entire units standing up in full LOS of each other blazing away indefinitely without hitting anything, until their ammo is gone...

[Mehlsack]

I support every statement of you. I guess there is some misunderstanding because of the topic of this thread ("typical ammo load"). The typical ammo load is pretty well shown in CMBN. My intention is to give an example to what amount these basic amount was exceeded in very rare situations (e.g. attacking a WW1-like entrenched position with shock troops at the eastern front).

Lets have a look at the rounds that were available on platoon/company level for different weapons (Wehrmacht). Provided that full supply was given.

K98 - 60

lMG - 2500

HMG - 4700

These amount had to last not less until the next day. At least when resupply was announced. Often it was enough for some days of fighting but sometimes (defence) it was consumed almost completly a day.

IMO these quantity is the upper limit to load up squads in CMBN (just a rule of thumb).

[JasonC]

Mehlsack, on your last - agreed.